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Originally Posted by shazeep
well, it is salvation by works, of course; if "throwing the gift away" is damnation by works. Works either affect one's salvation, or they do not. You can't have it both ways. You either embrace OSAS or salvation by works.
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You really won't discuss this without avoiding direct questions dealing with statements you make, will you?
Shazeep, your claim that losing salvation means salvation can be LOST by works which in turn implies salvation can be ACHIEVED by works, thereby refuting the word, does not jive. Why can you not answer my question: Have you ever had someone GIVE you a gift free of charge, and YOU LOST IT?
Did someone inform you that because you lost it you could bot have been given it freely to begin with? Did you later realize, upon its loss, that the friend actually did not freely give it to you, for if he had freely given it to you then you could not have lost it? You discuss and converse, but you do so without responding to all the points I make that were in response to YOUR statements. You do not reciprocate.
Salvation WITHOUT WORKS does NOT mean we cannot lose our salvation.
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And, i guess it is not salvation by works if the works come from faith,
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The works that come by faith DO NOT SAVE US. Christ's work on the cross saved us. We only accepted that and believed it. But you can STOP believing.
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rather than a belief that you can earn your way to forgiveness. So i guess "forgive, and you will be forgiven" should be "be forgiven, and you will forgive." Either that or we might seek a better understanding of "not by works, lest any man should boast." Does that verse have any backup?
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What verse? Please give the reference.
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I'm doing this to highlight the absurdity of believing that one is qualified to determine "saved or lost" in another individual, or even themselves.
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And that's why you are going at this backwards, wadr.
We do not determine what is true doctrine or not based upon whether or not a view can determine who is lost and who is not. lol. That is silly. We first establish what the bible means when it says the CROSS and JESUS is the WAY. What does that entail and demand of US? What does it mean when it says salvation is not by works? What kind of works? Start THERE, not from the standpoint of which conclusion puts us in the stage of being able to determine who is lost or saved.
That's as ridiculous as saying, "If your doctrine gives you the awareness of those whom God would deem lost, then it is false doctrine." Where is THAT in the bible?
You are asking what is in the bible to prove salvation is by the cross alone. But if you demand you can assess valid truth by a litmus test of what doctrine allows people to know who is lost or saved, it is hypocritical to not provide a scripture that relates that same litmus test for truth. Where does the bible say, "You shall know who is going to hell by determining who can claim they know who is lost and who is saved."? Look at the hypocrisy and logical fallacy in that kind of standpoint? You are effectively saying YOU can know who is LOST by detecting their claims to know who is lost. You think YOU have the right to say someone is lost by pointing to someone's claim that hey know who is lost. In effect, you are in a self-condemning circle that damns your own soul by making you aware of who is lost, when you're condemning anyone who thinks they know who is lost.
That is the true definition of Babylon.
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Aside from displaying a complete lack of humility,
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Why is it not humble to say those who reject the cross are lost? You keep demanding your predetermined opinion is fact that says one cannot be humble and is a judge if they say certain people are lost. You have consistently ignored my explanation that we are not judges if we are only the messengers of God and only repeating what God said about those who reject the cross. If we made up those conclusions and they were not in the bible that God demands we preach to the world, then WE would be the judge by determining what is the rule to be kept, and what it means to violate it. But we did not determine the rule that the cross alone saves. The WORD of GOD did. And we did not determine the judgment to be met. THE WORD OF GOD DID. And people can reason that away in their minds all they like, but fact is fact. God is the judge, not me, when I say the violation of His word is to reject the cross as the only way to heaven.
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it also does no justice to the concept, which i am convinced we completely misinterpret. The proof is in the fact that one cannot say "that guy who just made a solemn confession at the altar, and got baptized, is saved and going to heaven," or "that OP pastor who just got caught in adultery is lost, and going to hell."
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Correct! But you are distorting the true picture. It is true we can only tell them to do the things the bible says for salvation, which includes, by the way, the heart. And if they outwardly do the things the bible says, we cannot know if they did them in their hearts, AT FIRST. And THIS is when the FRUIT like you say comes into play. BY THEIR FRUITS we will know. But FRUITS take time to grow.
But the actual point you are avoiding is if someone distinctly rejects the cross, when the bible said it is the only way. Ergo, Muslims and other religious adherents are addressed right there.
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