Love One Another and the Cross

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

So then, you admit that other Christians might be saved? Excellent. Of course, you have to renounce your OP oaths now, or be shunned, i guess?

Anyone can apply the cross by acts 2:38.

But you insist it's got to be salvation by works
I said bye.

[shazeep]

unfortunately, regardless of any speeches to the contrary, that generally does not happen in practice, tho--what happens is standards, and us 4 and no more, and "They are all lost."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

unfortunately, regardless of any speeches to the contrary, that generally does not happen in practice, tho--what happens is standards, and us 4 and no more, and "They are all lost."

Whatever happened to you to close off from hearing anything about Christ's death as absolutely necessary is beyond me. Let me know if that ever changes.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Whatever happened to you to close off from hearing anything about Christ's death as absolutely necessary is beyond me. Let me know if that ever changes.

i never disagreed. I can agree with you until the cows come home; no problem. Lots of people going to hell will also agree with you. How can you tell the difference?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

i never disagreed. I can agree with you until the cows come home; no problem. Lots of people going to hell will also agree with you. How can you tell the difference?

But you're putting the cart before the horse. You said Muslims carry their crosses and are therfore saved. The Bible, not me, teaches, before all of that, one must be given righteousness through conscious faith thst Jesus died as them. Without that all important faith, a million crosses carried and loving people til we drop cannot save us a bit. So when you said that view of righteousness by the cross is wrong, by saying Muslims who deny his crucifixion are saved, you agreed with nothing about salvation.

That starting point must be made and THEN we proceed to bear fruit.

We cannot love people enough to save us. Period.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But you're putting the cart before the horse. You said Muslims carry their crosses and are therfore saved. The Bible, not me, teaches, before all of that, one must be given righteousness through conscious faith thst Jesus died as them. Without that all important faith, a million crosses carried and loving people til we drop cannot save us a bit. So when you said that view of righteousness by the cross is wrong, by saying Muslims who deny his crucifixion are saved, you agreed with nothing about salvation.

That starting point must be made and THEN we proceed to bear fruit.

We cannot love people enough to save us. Period.

you would have to convince the Good Samaritan of that, Mike. I do not agree, although there was a time when i would have. Good fruit does not come from bad trees. I know it is a big step. And it is complicated by works of the law. But God judges peoples' hearts, differently than how we judge. People who might never agree with you can be saved, and we have several parables for this. There is no standard but fruit.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

you would have to convince the Good Samaritan of that, Mike. I do not agree, although there was a time when i would have. Good fruit does not come from bad trees. I know it is a big step. And it is complicated by works of the law. But God judges peoples' hearts, differently than how we judge. People who might never agree with you can be saved, and we have several parables for this. There is no standard but fruit.

You deny the word, plainly and simply. It's salvation by works to you. You amply demonstrated you look at his death for us as second rate. And that throws everything else I said askew to you. That's what it means to say the cross is a stumbling block. You're stumbling all over it every time.

Unless you want to talk about whether or not the cross starts it all, no one can talk bible salvation to you.

[shazeep]

scary, huh? By all means, insist upon the ceremony for as long as it is comfortable; but it is meaningless for most people. I won't say that it never results in a "conversion," and i have even witnessed people "converted." Like, 2. They are rare, imo. What you believe should work, it has Scripture to back it up, but somehow the spirit gets lost or something. When it produces a changed heart, yes. When it gets sublimated to love, no.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

scary, huh? By all means, insist upon the ceremony for as long as it is comfortable; but it is meaningless for most people. I won't say that it never results in a "conversion," and i have even witnessed people "converted." Like, 2. They are rare, imo. What you believe should work, it has Scripture to back it up, but somehow the spirit gets lost or something. When it produces a changed heart, yes. When it gets sublimated to love, no.

You obviously don't know what ceremony is.

Save yourself. Have at it.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You deny the word, plainly and simply. It's salvation by works to you. You amply demonstrated you look at his death for us as second rate. And that throws everything else I said askew to you. That's what it means to say the cross is a stumbling block. You're stumbling all over it every time.

Unless you want to talk about whether or not the cross starts it all, no one can talk bible salvation to you.

that is just a way of belittling me, when i can demonstrate from Scripture that love comes first, and the cross is about love. I could just as easily argue that it is you who stumbles, etc. that is pointless.

Either you accept that there will be Sheep in heaven who never even heard of Christ or the cross or you do not. It is really as simple as that.