Love One Another and the Cross

[shazeep]

"Your doctrine is salvation by works in which a person earns righteousness by loving people."

Well, you keep insisting upon that; yet faith without works is still dead. So, i think this might be another impasse.

You must have works to find salvation. (i'll just state it as baldly as possible)
true or false?

"What makes us righteous is our faith in His death and resurrection."
then why are fundamental Christians such jerks? We either have different definitions of "righteous," "faith," "His death," or "resurrection," or some combination.

I'll try to read the rest of your tome up there--or have my lawyer look it over--here in a bit; but it is obvious that religion invites one into certain legal interpretations of Scripture that then become our assumptions, and it doesn't hurt to examine these; especially when they lead one into such demonstrable oxymorons as "Everyone who does not believe like i do is lost, and going to hell" but "God is love."

Christ is certainly the author and perfecter of our faith; i am not intent on leading anyone away from the Cross, but toward it. "Greater LOVE hath no man."

Understand that i am not going to try to question your quotations--i could "prove" that Paul was "lost" using Scripture, too. So at a certain point, one must interpret with their heart.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by shazeep

"Your doctrine is salvation by works in which a person earns righteousness by loving people."

Well, you keep insisting upon that; yet faith without works is still dead. So, i think this might be another impasse.

If you would discuss this we can narrow down the issue. But everytime we come to the need to discuss a point you ignore it and nothing is accomplished. Everytime I say we have to dissect a verse and see what it's saying and what it's not saying, you are no where to be found.

For example, with this point you just made: I repeatedly said, YES, faith without works is dead. But what is that faith? What is if toward? What must be believed? And that faith WILL GROW and produce fruit. But FRUIT takes time to grow, that's why it's called fruit.

You must have works to find salvation. (i'll just state it as baldly as possible)
true or false?

False.

"What makes us righteous is our faith in His death and resurrection."
then why are fundamental Christians such jerks?

See? rather than go by what the word says or not, by actually taking the verses that deal with it, you resort to reasoning and counting heads. The fact is THERE ARE CHRISTIANS who are not jerks. But nevertheless, what saith the word? You are saying, "Since so many Christians are jerks, then the word is WRONG about faith."

We either have different definitions of "righteous," "faith," "His death," or "resurrection," or some combination.

But you won't discuss those things to deal with that answer. I'm trying.

I'll try to read the rest of your tome up there--or have my lawyer look it over--here in a bit; but it is obvious that religion invites one into certain legal interpretations of Scripture that then become our assumptions, and it doesn't hurt to examine these; especially when they lead one into such demonstrable oxymorons as "Everyone who does not believe like i do is lost, and going to hell" but "God is love."

I dealt with the logical fallacy in that example of yours.

Christ is certainly the author and perfecter of our faith; i am not intent on leading anyone away from the Cross, but toward it. "Greater LOVE hath no man."

What is the cross to you, though? I am narrowing these issues down, and your'e not getting involved. From what you've said, the cross is what YOU CARRY by LOVING. What I am saying is that is the secondary issue. The primary is CHRIST'S CROSS that He died AS US on.

Understand that i am not going to try to question your quotations--i could "prove" that Paul was "lost" using Scripture, too. So at a certain point, one must interpret with their heart.

Context is vital. What is your interpreting with the heart? IS that not caring what context is but basing it upon an ethereal FEELING that one cannot be saved if one says others are lost? What is the basis for this ethereal FEELING, though? Is it Word? What Word? And it's not matter of the letter killeth. Paul was talking about OLD COVENANT Word when he said that.

But if your HEART is the basis for your assessment of any given verse in the bible, the heart is desperately wicked, and who can know it? That's why our hearts cannot be the foundation of truth we rely upon to compare it with errors. THE WORD itself is the foundation. It is without bias whereas the heart is full of bias. And so we must be as honest as we can AS WE read the word to find truth. God meant ONE THING when He gave a truth, and did NOT intend us to interpret it at whims of our HEARTS.

[mfblume]

I ask you to focus on what I said here:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=163

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=164

It, I think, is the basis of our differences.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I ask you to focus on what I said here:

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=163

http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...&postcount=164

It, I think, is the basis of our differences.

bump

[mfblume]

The issue here is that you feel anyone who claims people are lost is a hypocrite, because you think that automatically means they're exalting themselves, and they are gloating and thinking "Nyah nyah, you're lost. I'm not. Nyah nyah."

Meanwhile that's nonsense. There is such a thing as objectively stating what the bible says about who is lost, and that is not anyone's opinion when it's simply quoiting Word with context proved to say so. And the word of God informs us about what is required to be saved, stating those who do not follow it through are not saved. And those not saved are lost.

The bible says if people do not accept certain things and reject obedience to certain directives, they're lost. The word is not a game from God in which are statements far too vague to really know. (Maybe that's why you write vaguely.) The Word is not something that does not mean what it says. A child can understand the issues one must believe in the heart to be saved. We're not all lost and in the dark. The word sheds great light to a our paths. But when we nullify the word to not meaning what it says, because no one can really know the truth, then those furthest away from what the bible claims, who actually deny what the bible flatly states, can be saved, and those who stand on what the word says without a self exalting note in their hearts are lost as lost can be. This is truly when men call good evil and call evil good. This is a prime example.

But none of this will mean anything to a blinded mind, because words lose all meaning.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The issue here is that you feel anyone who claims people are lost is a hypocrite, because you think that automatically means they're exalting themselves, and they are gloating and thinking "Nyah nyah, you're lost. I'm not. Nyah nyah."

Meanwhile that's nonsense. There is such a thing as objectively stating what the bible says about who is lost, and that is not anyone's opinion when it's simply quoiting Word with context proved to say so. And the word of God informs us about what is required to be saved, stating those who do not follow it through are not saved. And those not saved are lost.

The bible says if people do not accept certain things and reject obedience to certain directives, they're lost. The word is not a game from God in which are statements far too vague to really know. (Maybe that's why you write vaguely.) The Word is not something that does not mean what it says. A child can understand the issues one must believe in the heart to be saved. We're not all lost and in the dark. The word sheds great light to a our paths. But when we nullify the word to not meaning what it says, because no one can really know the truth, then those furthest away from what the bible claims, who actually deny what the bible flatly states, can be saved, and those who stand on what the word says without a self exalting note in their hearts are lost as lost can be. This is truly when men call good evil and call evil good. This is a prime example.

But none of this will mean anything to a blinded mind, because words lose all meaning.

Amen. I persist here because you are lost, Mike, and will die in your sins if you don't change your mind. And i got Scripture to back this up.

[shazeep]

Originally Posted by mfblume

bump

ok these are just too dense for me to give a reply to, sorry. Good deeds done from an impure heart, expecting reward, will not save you. And, faith without works is dead. Perhaps coming from a codependent family, with it's intrinsic deal-making from birth, has helped me to see this, but really if you do good deeds in secret to those who could not possibly be of any advantage to you in the future, you have grasped 90% of the point imo.

It is considered low-class to take open advantage of people to us now; but that is a way of life, still, for lots of people.