Vetting failure led to terrorism?

[Jermyn Davidson]

I've heard the "big name" Apostolic preachers in person with my own ears.

I've gone to many Apostolic conferences (mainly east of the Mississippi and south of Philly).

I've spoken with some Apostolic Pastors in private, in different parts of the country, where I have visited and where I have lived.

I know what they say, what they tell the congregation. They're usually consistent.

They leave no room at all and honestly, they really can't-- not if they really believe what they preach.

I really don't think I am mischaracterizing Apostolics. I think you guys haven't given much thought to the fact that if the Apostolics are right in all they present, then it is really next to impossible for anyone else to be right too.

Seriously, explain how anyone else could be saved, who's not Apostolic.

If I am mischaracterizing the Apostolics, show me in scripture how others are saved without obeying Acts 2:38 as presented in Apostolic circles.

I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

I've heard the "big name" Apostolic preachers in person with my own ears.

I've gone to many Apostolic conferences (mainly east of the Mississippi and south of Philly).

I've spoken with some Apostolic Pastors in private, in different parts of the country, where I have visited and where I have lived.

I know what they say, what they tell the congregation. They're usually consistent.

They leave no room at all and honestly, they really can't-- not if they really believe what they preach.

I really don't think I am mischaracterizing Apostolics. I think you guys haven't given much thought to the fact that if the Apostolics are right in all they present, then it is really next to impossible for anyone else to be right too.

Seriously, explain how anyone else could be saved, who's not Apostolic.

If I am mischaracterizing the Apostolics, show me in scripture how others are saved without obeying Acts 2:38 as presented in Apostolic circles.

I am not afraid to admit when I am wrong.

So, allow me to ask this question again? Why do you post on an Apostolic forum when you hold so much contempt for us and our churches?

Looking for converts?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

So, allow me to ask this question again? Why do you post on an Apostolic forum when you hold so much contempt for us and our churches?

Looking for converts?

I am here because I want to be here. I actually like it here. You are reading contempt, but there isn't any here-- not in this conversation.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Seriously, explain how anyone else could be saved, who's not Apostolic.

If salvation wasn't found in this Way, then *I* wouldn't be part of it.

If salvation was found in the Baptist way, then believe I'd be a Baptist.

If salvation was found in the doctrine of John Wesley, I'd be a Wesleyan Methodist.

But I found salvation in the Bible. And lo and behold, so did a lot of other folks. And it includes knowing there is One God, One Faith, One Baptism, One Spirit, One Body. It is in accordance with the doctrine of the apostles of Jesus Christ. It proclaims repentance and remission of sins, in the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, it proclaims there is NO salvation (repentance and remission of sins) in ANY OTHER NAME, and it proclaims that repenting and being baptised in THAT ONE, SAVING NAME is where obedience to the gospel begins.

Anything other than what the apostles taught is not real Christianity, and will not save anyone. How could it?

[Jermyn Davidson]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If salvation wasn't found in this Way, then *I* wouldn't be part of it.

If salvation was found in the Baptist way, then believe I'd be a Baptist.

If salvation was found in the doctrine of John Wesley, I'd be a Wesleyan Methodist.

But I found salvation in the Bible. And lo and behold, so did a lot of other folks. And it includes knowing there is One God, One Faith, One Baptism, One Spirit, One Body. It is in accordance with the doctrine of the apostles of Jesus Christ. It proclaims repentance and remission of sins, in the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, it proclaims there is NO salvation (repentance and remission of sins) in ANY OTHER NAME, and it proclaims that repenting and being baptised in THAT ONE, SAVING NAME is where obedience to the gospel begins.

Anything other than what the apostles taught is not real Christianity, and will not save anyone. How could it?

Another consistent Apostolic.

If I could have remained a consistent Apostolic, then I would have. However, when I read the Bible, I see a different gospel than what is presented by the Apostolics.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

Another consistent Apostolic.

If I could have remained a consistent Apostolic, then I would have. However, when I read the Bible, I see a different gospel than what is presented by the Apostolics.

So then Peter got it wrong in Acts 2? Ananias got it wrong Acts 22? Paul got it wrong in Acts 19?

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Esaias

If salvation wasn't found in this Way, then *I* wouldn't be part of it.

If salvation was found in the Baptist way, then believe I'd be a Baptist.

If salvation was found in the doctrine of John Wesley, I'd be a Wesleyan Methodist.

But I found salvation in the Bible. And lo and behold, so did a lot of other folks. And it includes knowing there is One God, One Faith, One Baptism, One Spirit, One Body. It is in accordance with the doctrine of the apostles of Jesus Christ. It proclaims repentance and remission of sins, in the NAME OF JESUS CHRIST, it proclaims there is NO salvation (repentance and remission of sins) in ANY OTHER NAME, and it proclaims that repenting and being baptised in THAT ONE, SAVING NAME is where obedience to the gospel begins.

Anything other than what the apostles taught is not real Christianity, and will not save anyone. How could it?

I disagree with this "us 4 and no more" kind of thinking.

I am Apostolic true blue, just not the UPCI kind, however I tend to embrace all Apostolics of every stripe.

Now when it comes to the Trinitarians, I do not say they are saved, but neither do I say they are lost, for I do not feel it is my place to sit in judgment of them, that is God's job.

If we had to have perfect doctrine or theology in order to be saved then none of us would be saved for in my many years in the Apostolic camp, I have never met a person that had perfect doctrine, not even me.

of course there are always pretenders who hint that they only have perfect theology and if anyone does not agree with them 100% then they are lost and in their way to hell, without passing go, without collecting 200 dollars.

I do hope that perhaps God will be merciful and take in Baptists, Methodists, and even Catholics, why not?

I do not see nothing contradictory or inconsistent in preaching the Apostolic message and yet hoping that the Trinitarians will also be saved, after all they too have faith in Jesus Christ, perhaps an imperfect faith, but faith nevertheless.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by FlamingZword

I disagree with this "us 4 and no more" kind of thinking.

There is no 'us four and no more' kind of thinking. Either there is a way of salvation revealed in the Bible, or there is not. Either the way of salvation can be known, or it cannot be known. If it can be known, then it can be known that those who refuse it or do not know it are not in the way of salvation.

Now when it comes to the Trinitarians, I do not say they are saved, but neither do I say they are lost, for I do not feel it is my place to sit in judgment of them, that is God's job.

Identifying the lost as 'lost' is not sitting in judgment of them. It is simply identifying what is declared by the Scripture as to what salvation is, what it looks like, how it works out. By declaring that whoever has not obeyed the gospel is lost one is not sitting in judgment of them, one is not making a judicial decision that sends them to any destination whatsoever. One is simply agreeing with God as to the terms of salvation.

If we had to have perfect doctrine or theology in order to be saved then none of us would be saved for in my many years in the Apostolic camp, I have never met a person that had perfect doctrine, not even me.

The Bible tells us plainly what it takes to be saved. Everybody either conforms to it, or they are lost. This 'perfect doctrine' nonsense is just that - nonsense, a red herring, a straw man. Nobody suggests one has to have perfect understanding of all things whatsoever to be saved. Nobody suggested that. Nobody claimed that. Only you brought it up as something to argue against - but nobody hold that position. It's called a straw man.

of course there are always pretenders who hint that they only have perfect theology and if anyone does not agree with them 100% then they are lost and in their way to hell, without passing go, without collecting 200 dollars.

Straw man. Red herring. Irrelevent.

I do hope that perhaps God will be merciful and take in Baptists, Methodists, and even Catholics, why not?

He absolutely will, if they will repent of their sins and be baptised, and wash away their sins, calling on the name of the Lord!

I do not see nothing contradictory or inconsistent in preaching the Apostolic message and yet hoping that the Trinitarians will also be saved, after all they too have faith in Jesus Christ, perhaps an imperfect faith, but faith nevertheless.

If the apostolic message is indeed the apostolic message - that is, the message preached by THE APOSTLES THEMSELVES - then anyone who rejects that message has, according to Jesus, rejected HIM. So why would you be hoping that those who reject Christ would be saved ANYWAY, in spite of their rejection of the truth? Might as well become a universalist for that matter.

Christ is Truth. We are sanctified by the Truth, which is the Word of God. If we will not conform to the Truth now, in this life, we aren't fit for glory, for an eternity with the One who is Himself TRUTH INCARNATE. We wouldn't enjoy it anyway! A person who is not conformed to the truth, who does not LOVE THE TRUTH (which is the Word of God), would not love to be with God for eternity, it would be torment to them. If a person doesn't love Truth now, they aren't going to suddenly love it then.

[FlamingZword]

Originally Posted by Esaias

There is no 'us four and no more' kind of thinking. Either there is a way of salvation revealed in the Bible, or there is not. Either the way of salvation can be known, or it cannot be known. If it can be known, then it can be known that those who refuse it or do not know it are not in the way of salvation.

Identifying the lost as 'lost' is not sitting in judgment of them. It is simply identifying what is declared by the Scripture as to what salvation is, what it looks like, how it works out. By declaring that whoever has not obeyed the gospel is lost one is not sitting in judgment of them, one is not making a judicial decision that sends them to any destination whatsoever. One is simply agreeing with God as to the terms of salvation.

The Bible tells us plainly what it takes to be saved. Everybody either conforms to it, or they are lost. This 'perfect doctrine' nonsense is just that - nonsense, a red herring, a straw man. Nobody suggests one has to have perfect understanding of all things whatsoever to be saved. Nobody suggested that. Nobody claimed that. Only you brought it up as something to argue against - but nobody hold that position. It's called a straw man.

Straw man. Red herring. Irrelevent.

He absolutely will, if they will repent of their sins and be baptised, and wash away their sins, calling on the name of the Lord!

If the apostolic message is indeed the apostolic message - that is, the message preached by THE APOSTLES THEMSELVES - then anyone who rejects that message has, according to Jesus, rejected HIM. So why would you be hoping that those who reject Christ would be saved ANYWAY, in spite of their rejection of the truth? Might as well become a universalist for that matter.

Christ is Truth. We are sanctified by the Truth, which is the Word of God. If we will not conform to the Truth now, in this life, we aren't fit for glory, for an eternity with the One who is Himself TRUTH INCARNATE. We wouldn't enjoy it anyway! A person who is not conformed to the truth, who does not LOVE THE TRUTH (which is the Word of God), would not love to be with God for eternity, it would be torment to them. If a person doesn't love Truth now, they aren't going to suddenly love it then.

OK let me put it this way
You believe in Acts 2:38, so do I
You believe in One God, so do I
You believe in keeping the Sabbath, so do I

So you and me are in agreement in those three points, but what about those Apostolics which do not accept the Sabbath? Are they lost?

They are not conforming to the truth of the Sabbath, should I then say that they are totally lost.
And if they are not lost because they fail to keep the Sabbath, then our keeping of the Sabbath is then irrelevant, for this does not confer any special status.

Likewise, the Trinitarians get baptized in what they believe Jesus told them to get baptized, they believe they are keeping correctly the commandment of baptism just like the Sabbath deniers believe they are keeping the Sabbath on Sunday.

The Trinitarians believe in one God also, they never claim to believe in three gods, it is a misunderstanding in their part to believe that this one god is made up of three persons. Yet they strongly believe in one God.

God wants us to know him and understand him, but is not having the right theology 100% correct a ground to dismiss their salvation?

I know and I am sure that Trinitarians are incorrect in their theology, just like I am sure that Apostolics who do not keep the Sabbath are wrong in their theology regarding this matter. Yet if I refuse to condemn my Apostolic Brethren who do not keep the Sabbath, why should I then condemn the Trinitarians for being wrong in some other theological aspects of the Bible?

[Praxeas]

Vetting?