Rock Hudson Repented Before His Death

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Amazing that this interpretation is nonexistent. But for the sake of argument I won't disagree with you. Which leads me to the obvious question: what in the heck does that mean? Jesus was telling him he'd be in a GARDEN after he died? What's that??? Is this like a nicer purgatory?

Thank you. Since you don't know what the "heck" that means then you haven't the slightest idea what Jesus meant when He made the comment. Bible school did nothing for you, your experience in Pentecost was a flash of white light, and sadly you are now the sorriest rendition of a Baptist. Contemplate that, on the Tree of Woe.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Whatever. I read what I read, the author reported he confessed his sins.

Then you should of gone a little further than your Roman Catholic author and checked out some unbiased sources. Ragamuffin Gospel? How utterly putrid.
But our friend Michael the Disciple found an article which you should of taken the time to peruse. It gave a good play by play. Rock's caretaker boyfriend call the priest, the priest came, made a decision to administer the sanctified cracker, and give LAST RIGHTS. Finito! He confessed his sins? What in tarnation is that??? Sorry, but the Bible doesn't prescribe such foolishness, and pass it off as the Gospel. DB you read things with a skewed view. Waterboard and Manna???

Good God from Zion!!!

Originally Posted by deacon blues

My God is mysterious, the Bible reveals Him to be so.

No doubt, your god has to be, in order for YOU to fill in all the blanks.
The workers who came last paid with the same wage, were the remnant of Israel, and the Gentiles. Not sexual deviants who bypassed God's mercy, to play Him as a first rate chump at the last minute.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

We certainly can understand things about Him, but who can know the mind of the Lord?

Bro, it isn't about knowing whats on His mind, but He gave us all the information concerning soteriology. This is why sinners just can't deal with the change every second Christianity. It is as consistent as the Weather Channel.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

His ways are past finding out.

Bro, taking verses out of their context never works for anyone. Unless you are dealing with a frustrated soccer mom going through a bad divorce. Dude, Jesus is the revelation, the revealing of the plan of God for Judea, and the remnant of Israel, to all the nations. God made it plan through His Word in the Body of Christ. So sorry that your experience was nothing more than a flash of white light filled with white noise on full blast.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

As far as the heavens are above the earth are His ways above our ways and His thoughts above our thoughts.

DB, you are setting up a scenario which leads into a ditch. You are building a case for a Gnostic deity which you can never understand what He wants from you. Therefore you are covered in bandages awaiting your own death where you are finally perfected? The death, burial, and resurrection wasn't enough, but your own death brings salvation? Hinduism 101

Originally Posted by deacon blues

We can know much as followers of Christ. Judging whether a man truly repented or not, not being present at that moment, reading only conflicting reports, is really something none of us can know for sure. So yes, GOD ONLY KNOWS.

Yes, God does know, therefore He relayed it through His teachers, prophets, and Body. While you are trying to be nicer than Jesus with your bypassing of the Gospel to build yourself a tower to out do God's plan of salvation. You lose everything. If the blind lead the blind they BOTH fall into a ditch. DB, tie your shoelaces.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Until you understand the grossness of your own sinfulness and guilt, you'll always be blind to Biblical grace. As long as you see other follow sinners as worse than you, as long as your attitude is "at least I haven't done ______" like this man or that man (see Luke 18:9-14)" then you won't believe that a person in their last moments can be saved. EB Jesus was killed for your sins and Hitler's and Dahmer's and the most notorious of sinners. The guilt is universal.

Sorry, but that doesn't float. Walking around in sack cloth and ashes isn't going to make you better than anyone. But knowing how to help them get out of the sackcloth and into the joy of the Lord through the Holy Ghost is what they are looking for!!!!! You know, allow me to point out how bipolar your beliefs are. You want to waterboard people, but you talk about God's grace? You want to arm yourself to kill your enemy, but talk about God's grace? Bro, look around you! All of the sinners who just shake their heads when they hear that sort of psychobabble.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Not conditions. Reality. My God can and will save anyone who believes. Even someone on their deathbed. If you declare with your mouth, “Jesus is Lord,” and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you profess your faith and are saved.

The God of the Bible laid out a plan, don't follow the plan, then you trample the blood He laid out for you to wear. Sorry, but your pseudo water weak Baptist mantras are failing this country and her prisons. Sorry, bro they just didn't work.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Of course. But someone moments from death won't have any more opportunities to show the world the change. Except maybe some remaining courage as they face mortality. Maybe a chance to tell a nurse about the peace they have made with God. Maybe a chance to let His light shine to some unbelieving kin folks who are by their side.

Well, that maybe the stories of saints of God as they are dying, but not Mr Hudson.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

The Gentiles had to PROVE THEY WERE WORTHY??? Dude---NOBODY IS WORTHY!!!

Bro, try reading a Bible sometimes instead of snippets. DB, they came to Jesus, Jesus wasn't there for THEM. He tells the Syrophoenician woman that she was a pesky little dog, but when she showed HER FAITH He responded.
Man, religion gave you are brutal shark attack.

So, you are on an Apostolic forum to do what?

To preach about waterboarding, hatred for Muslims, and tell everyone about your liberty from the Apostolic movement to Jail House Jesus Grace?

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Thank you. Since you don't know what the "heck" that means then you haven't the slightest idea what Jesus meant when He made the comment. Bible school did nothing for you, your experience in Pentecost was a flash of white light, and sadly you are now the sorriest rendition of a Baptist. Contemplate that, on the Tree of Woe.

You do a pretty good impersonation of a Pharisee. I want you to be Caiaphas next year for our Passion Play!

Then you should of gone a little further than your Roman Catholic author and checked out some unbiased sources. Ragamuffin Gospel? How utterly putrid.
But our friend Michael the Disciple found an article which you should of taken the time to peruse. It gave a good play by play. Rock's caretaker boyfriend call the priest, the priest came, made a decision to administer the sanctified cracker, and give LAST RIGHTS. Finito! He confessed his sins? What in tarnation is that??? Sorry, but the Bible doesn't prescribe such foolishness, and pass it off as the Gospel. DB you read things with a skewed view. Waterboard and Manna???

Good God from Zion!!!

Chillax EB. You go ahead and be all giddy about Rock Hudson's eternal damnation. It's a free country. I hope somehow he repented.

I'll stop arguing with about Rock, but will be happy to continue the conversation about deathbed salvation.

No doubt, your god has to be, in order for YOU to fill in all the blanks.
The workers who came last paid with the same wage, were the remnant of Israel, and the Gentiles. Not sexual deviants who bypassed God's mercy, to play Him as a first rate chump at the last minute.

And your god is slow to mercy and quick to anger. Kind of like you. He's a god in your image!

Yes, God does know, therefore He relayed it through His teachers, prophets, and Body. While you are trying to be nicer than Jesus with your bypassing of the Gospel to build yourself a tower to out do God's plan of salvation. You lose everything. If the blind lead the blind they BOTH fall into a ditch. DB, tie your shoelaces.

Nobody present with Hudson were the true Church EB, so how can we know the truth??? They are all heathens! Can't trust those counterfeit Christians.

Sorry, but that doesn't float. Walking around in sack cloth and ashes isn't going to make you better than anyone. But knowing how to help them get out of the sackcloth and into the joy of the Lord through the Holy Ghost is what they are looking for!!!!! You know, allow me to point out how bipolar your beliefs are. You want to waterboard people, but you talk about God's grace? You want to arm yourself to kill your enemy, but talk about God's grace? Bro, look around you! All of the sinners who just shake their heads when they hear that sort of psychobabble.

"Allow" you to point something out? HAHAHA!!! That's one of the funniest things I've ever read on AFF!

Hey everybody---EB asked permission to share his highly sought-after opinion!!!

As if...

The God of the Bible laid out a plan, don't follow the plan, then you trample the blood He laid out for you to wear. Sorry, but your pseudo water weak Baptist mantras are failing this country and her prisons. Sorry, bro they just didn't work.

I'm no Baptist, they wouldn't want me. However, you use it a a pejorative, and the funny thing is that they are 10 times larger than the Pentecostals. So if it isn't working---why do the baptists remain the largest?

Bro, try reading a Bible sometimes instead of snippets. DB, they came to Jesus, Jesus wasn't there for THEM. He tells the Syrophoenician woman that she was a pesky little dog, but when she showed HER FAITH He responded.
Man, religion gave you are brutal shark attack.

The old weak debate tactic of call into question the opponents sincerity. There's obviously a severe mental defect if I disagree with God's gift to the human race---EB.

So, you are on an Apostolic forum to do what?

To preach about waterboarding, hatred for Muslims, and tell everyone about your liberty from the Apostolic movement to Jail House Jesus Grace?

And you are here to do what? Suck all the oxygen out of the forum???

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

You do a pretty good impersonation of a Pharisee. I want you to be Caiaohas next year for our Passion Play!

Who?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Chillax EB. You go ahead and be all giddy about Rock Hudson's eternal damnation. It's a free country. I hope somehow he repented.

No, no one is giddy, no one is happy about sinners missing out on the Holy Ghost and gaining eternal life. You just love your John Lennon Christianity. Did you happen to finally get "Imagine" into your hymnals?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I'll stop arguing with about Rock, but will be happy to continue the conversation about deathbed salvation.

Waiting?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

And your god is slow to mercy and quick to anger. Kind of like you. He's a god in your image!

Sorry, remember you are Mr Waterboard a GoGo!

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Nobody present with Hudson were the true Church EB, so how can we know the truth??? They are all heathens! Can't trust those counterfeit Christians.

Would you like to prove Catholicism now?

Are you a Universalist?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

"Allow" you to point something out? HAHAHA!!! That's one of the funniest things I've ever read on AFF!

Oh, you thank God that you are not like other men, especially like EB.
DB, we don't do Passion Plays, but I bet you do a mean Caiaphas?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Hey everybody---EB asked permission to share his highly sought-after opinion!!!

Oh, I forgot, only your opinion is worthy. You had God reprimand you when you were in Bible college because you weren't winning souls. So you found a place of prayer to pray for your comrades. I guess God approves of you posting your opinions on waterboarding, and telling married men that there daughters could be raped.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

As if...

As if what? I can just imagine what words you would place after the dots.

Dude you need the Holy Ghost.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I'm no Baptist,

You do a good job faking it.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I'm no Baptist, they wouldn't want me.

Oh, I'm not surprised.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

However, you use it a a pejorative, and the funny thing is that they are 10 times larger than the Pentecostals. So if it's working---why do the baptists remain the largest?

Matthew 7:14

Sorry but The Western and Eastern Roman churches are the largest. Atheism is growing in the country, and in Europe. I bet when their numbers start to double you will believe they are having a move of God.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

The old weak debate tactic of call into question the opponents sincerity. There's obviously a severe mental defect if I disagree with God's gift to the human race---EB.

No, you just don't know how to answer. Nothing in my post which you quoted said anything about you being a sorehead, or a cry baby if you disagreed. It isn't about you disagreeing or agreeing. You just don't have any rebuttal, or answers. You want to believe in some banged up Jail House Jesus that's on you. You know that greasy grace is a sham, you know that it is found no where in history. You question it yourself, but refuse to denounce it as religious nonsense.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

And you are here to do what? Suck all the oxygen out of the forum???

No, that job was taken by you years ago.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

Are you a Universalist?

No. There is a lake of fire, and those whose names are not written in the lambs book of life will be cast into it. However I am a believer in the Gospel and in the grace of God. I believe John's revelation that saw a number in heaven which was beyond description. I believe it's far easier to get saved than what many of the apostolics I have known believe, and I Believe it's much more difficult to be lost then what I was led to believe as a young person and young minister. You might think that the book of life is written on a 3 x 5 card, I disagree.

Oh, you thank God that you are not like other men, especially like EB.
DB, we don't do Passion Plays, but I bet you do a mean Caiaphas?

You want to believe I think that but actually no, you aren't any different than me nor am I you. God have mercy on you, God have mercy on me for we are sinners. I know you don't like hearing it, but the above statement is 100% wrong. You are wrong occasionally EB.

As if what? I can just imagine what words you would place after the dots.

You can imagine all sorts of things, obviously imaging the worst from me, however "as if" was to say "as if I really want to hear your opinion on every subject on AFF." My opinion of you is that your opinion of yourself and your point of view is highly overinflated.

Dude you need the Holy Ghost.

Don't we all...

Sorry but The Western and Eastern Roman churches are the largest. Atheism is growing in the country, and in Europe. I bet when their numbers start to double you will believe they are having a move of God.

Of course I don't believe that sheer numbers are the determining factor of who is truly working on God's behalf. However using "Baptist" as a pejorative, while a stinging rebuke in your eyes, doesn't bother me because I know good Baptists, they are godly people, they bear the fruit of the Spirit, and I believe we will share heaven with them. I have a lot of respect for the Baptist movement. Which I'm sure is no surprise to you. And I'm sure will elicit a very melodramatic response. I get it. I used to think that we were the only ones going to heaven too. I used to believe all of the rest of the Christian world was going to split hell wide open too. So I get it. Still, calling me a Baptist doesn't hurt my feelings. I'm not a Baptist, but I don't take offense even though that's the goal.

No, you just don't know how to answer. Nothing in my post which you quoted said anything about you being a sorehead, or a cry baby if you disagreed. It isn't about you disagreeing or agreeing. You just don't have any rebuttal, or answers. You want to believe in some banged up Jail House Jesus that's on you. You know that greasy grace is a sham, you know that it is found no where in history. You question it yourself, but refuse to denounce it as religious nonsense.

No, I don't have the time or the energy to accumulate 16,000+ posts and respond to every single thread and share my opinion to the entire AFF world. You see yourself as the truth crusader, that it's your calling to argue, fuss and fight about everything. And you love for guys like me to jump into the ring and spar with you so you can show everyone your prowess. I'm game once in a while, but I do have a job, actually a couple of jobs, a marriage, a family. AFF is a casual pastime for me. It's not my address.

No, that job was taken by you years ago.

16,000+ posts---many of which are novellas---versus my post total displays who the heavy breather is around here. You are ubiquitous here. I'm just a every now and then customer. After the presidential election I will be even more scarce.

But go ahead and get the last word.

You win! Yay!!!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

No. There is a lake of fire, and those whose names are not written in the lambs book of life will be cast into it. However I am a believer in the Gospel and in the grace of God. I believe John's revelation that saw a number in heaven which was beyond description. I believe it's far easier to get saved than what many of the apostolics I have known believe, and I Believe it's much more difficult to be lost then what I was led to believe as a young person and young minister. You might think that the book of life is written on a 3 x 5 card, I disagree.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I'll stop arguing with about Rock, but will be happy to continue the conversation about deathbed salvation.

Actually, the above was never true, I read your posts but find nothing more than your pyschological projection. You know why you and I bang heads? because you yourself are one opinionated dude, which isn't a bad thing, because we are on a forum!

So, we are expected to present our opinions whether you like it or not. I know, I know, you would really like to have a captive audience who sit idly by while you preach sweet daddy grace on one hand, and waterboarding, violent self defense, peppered with women and children being raped. That to me is like a bell rang by Pavlov. Listen DB, I am just fascinated by people like you.
Who say that they can't even figure out why God would save them, but would want to see Muslims tied down and waterboarded. Or anyone for that matter, any human being. I read your posts and just can't believe that you make comments that we all need the Holy Ghost, but would subject someone to torture?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

You want to believe I think that but actually no,

But couldn't I say that to you? No, because your opinions are the only ones that count.

DB=

Originally Posted by deacon blues

you aren't any different than me nor am I you.

But we are, we are different. I believe that is another fallacy of what you believe. Everyone is different in their own way, not everyone wants to torture people even if it was to save a thousand people. They wouldn't hurt anyone. I'm amazed of bravery like that.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

God have mercy on you, God have mercy on me for we are sinners.

So, sin no more less a worse thing happen to you means what? So, John 5:14 was an idle threat? Why didn't Jesus explain to this guy that it was impossible for him to do what Jesus just prescribed? What about John 8:11? Jesus tells the woman that she had no accusers, and therefore He would not condemn her, but she was to no longer sin. 1 John 3:8 says those who continue to sin are of the devil? That's another thing which really people don't understand. You guys are always telling people that you are constantly doing bad things, when your Bible says not to do bad things. You excuse your behavior by saying that you can't help it because your a sinner. We have a sister in the church who taught in prison. She at times would have inmates who were allowed to assist in the classes. She had one individual who was a Bible study leader, and very well versed in scripture, even had a prayer group. But she found out that he was transferred from another facility, and for something he did. Come to find out that he and one of his prayer partners were working in the prison dental office. While there they attacked and brutally raped the female dental assistant. Breaking the woman's jaw.

I said all that to say this, the whole perpetual sinner form of religion is a Jail House Jesus religion. It preaches primarily that you cannot stop sinning, that you are so much a sinner that only your own death, burial, and resurrection can get you out of the sinning business. So, change, personal change isn't ever expected. Because after all you are a sinner. The rest of the world really doesn't buy it, and believe it is pretty hypocritical to read the Bible while watching porn on the Internet. Bob Coy (a pastor in Fort Lauderdale) was sat down because he was addicted to Internet porn, and having sexual relations with the people who attend his 20,000 plus congregation in Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale. When he was busted he never addressed the congregation which he built with only a handful of people. He sent them a dear John letter which one of his assistants read to the people. You would think that was the end and the minister would seek rehabilitation, no longer to preach behind a pulpit. But that isn't the case in once a sinner always a sinner religion, the grace band-aid over a sucking, bleeding, bullet wound. People wanted Bob Coy back in the pulpit. They wanted his MARRIAGE sermons back on line. Why? Because aren't we all sinners!!! People who are on the outside of the three ring circus called American Churchanity just look with disgust. Shake their heads and say, "I may not know anything about the Bible or Jesus, but I know that garbage can't be it." Sad, but The American Industrial Church Complex of Once a Sinner Always a Sinner has hands dripping with blood from those they have strangled away from Christ.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

16,000+ posts-

Been a member since 2007.

But if that's the best you could do, then have at it.

DB=

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

That to me is like a bell rang by Pavlov. Listen DB, I am just fascinated by people like you.

"That to me is like a bell RUNG by Pavlov."

Johnny will you RING the bell? (present tense)
Johnny RANG the bell. (past tense)
The bell RUNG by Johnny was loud. (past participle)

So, sin no more less a worse thing happen to you means what? So, John 5:14 was an idle threat? Why didn't Jesus explain to this guy that it was impossible for him to do what Jesus just prescribed? What about John 8:11? Jesus tells the woman that she had no accusers, and therefore He would not condemn her, but she was to no longer sin. 1 John 3:8 says those who continue to sin are of the devil? That's another thing which really people don't understand. You guys are always telling people that you are constantly doing bad things, when your Bible says not to do bad things. You excuse your behavior by saying that you can't help it because your a sinner. We have a sister in the church who taught in prison. She at times would have inmates who were allowed to assist in the classes. She had one individual who was a Bible study leader, and very well versed in scripture, even had a prayer group. But she found out that he was transferred from another facility, and for something he did. Come to find out that he and one of his prayer partners were working in the prison dental office. While there they attacked and brutally raped the female dental assistant. Breaking the woman's jaw.

I said all that to say this, the whole perpetual sinner form of religion is a Jail House Jesus religion. It preaches primarily that you cannot stop sinning, that you are so much a sinner that only your own death, burial, and resurrection can get you out of the sinning business. So, change, personal change isn't ever expected. Because after all you are a sinner. The rest of the world really doesn't buy it, and believe it is pretty hypocritical to read the Bible while watching porn on the Internet. Bob Coy (a pastor in Fort Lauderdale) was sat down because he was addicted to Internet porn, and having sexual relations with the people who attend his 20,000 plus congregation in Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale. When he was busted he never addressed the congregation which he built with only a handful of people. He sent them a dear John letter which one of his assistants read to the people. You would think that was the end and the minister would seek rehabilitation, no longer to preach behind a pulpit. But that isn't the case in once a sinner always a sinner religion, the grace band-aid over a sucking, bleeding, bullet wound. People wanted Bob Coy back in the pulpit. They wanted his MARRIAGE sermons back on line. Why? Because aren't we all sinners!!! People who are on the outside of the three ring circus called American Churchanity just look with disgust. Shake their heads and say, "I may not know anything about the Bible or Jesus, but I know that garbage can't be it." Sad, but The American Industrial Church Complex of Once a Sinner Always a Sinner has hands dripping with blood from those they have strangled away from Christ.

Paul said he was chiefest of sinners---saying that as an Apostle, a believer, a disciple of Jesus, and prolific NT writer.
[/quote]

Been a member since 2007.

Me too.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

"That to me is like a bell RUNG by Pavlov."

Johnny will you RING the bell? (present tense)
Johnny RANG the bell. (past tense)
The bell RUNG by Johnny was loud. (past participle)



Paul said he was chiefest of sinners---saying that as an Apostle, a believer, a disciple of Jesus, and prolific NT writer.

Me too.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

You do a pretty good impersonation of a Pharisee. I want you to be Caiaohas next year for our Passion Play!

How do you spell Caiphas?

DB, we are on an Internet forum not writing a novel, but it is humorous to me that you have to go after grammatical foibles to bring you solace. Must be the same peace you feel if you were waterboarding a Muslim father in front of his children. All the while threatening him that the treatment he is receiving will soon be done on his family. Unless he tells you the leaders of his secret organization.

Anyway, Paul was reflecting on his past life, therefore he makes the statement the chiefest of sinners. If he was currently actively a leader in sin, he couldn't tell people to get out of sin. In the same letter where he makes that statement he also gives conditions of a bishop and deacon. 1 Timothy 3:2, the bishop must be blameless? Seriously? But how do you be blameless, while being an active leader in sin? That would disqualify Paul as an apostle. Ephesians 4:28 Paul tells thieves in his congregations that they must stop stealing, and start working. 1 John 3:6 says, who ever is in Christ sinneth not: whosoever sins has no understanding of Christ, which means they don't know Christ. In verse 7, Paul speaks to new converts warning them not to be deceived by men who would teach that you couldn't do righteousness, even as Christ is righteous. In verse 9 the statement is made "whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed (WORD) remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." This comes after Paul makes the statement in verse 8, "he that commits sin is of the devil????"

DB, are you sure your church doesn't sing John Lennon's Imagine every Sunday morning?

DB, what do you do with scriptures like the few I just quoted? Was Paul bipolar? Oh, because your religion is spiritually bipolar, you speak of comfort, solace, sweet peace, but like a switch on a light shut it all to support some psychotic political candidate.

DB, we aren't saved by works, but we are judged by works. Meaning a tree is known by its fruit. If you are surfing the Internet looking at porn while your Bible is open to 1st John 3:1-24. There is something wrong with your new birth experience. The birth may not of ever happened, or if it ever did you need to find the first love, and repent. So, do your grammar check, make sure I rang, rung, or clanged the bell. But while you do that, consider that the Industrial Church Complex has sent this country (and others which they sent missionaries) right off into a ditch.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I know, I know, you would really like to have a captive audience who sit idly by while you preach sweet daddy grace on one hand, and waterboarding, violent self defense, peppered with women and children being raped. That to me is like a bell rang by Pavlov. Listen DB, I am just fascinated by people like you.
Who say that they can't even figure out why God would save them, but would want to see Muslims tied down and waterboarded. Or anyone for that matter, any human being. I read your posts and just can't believe that you make comments that we all need the Holy Ghost, but would subject someone to torture?

Sometimes it takes me a while to think of what I want to say in response.

One can believe in the Gospel and God's grace and not have to be a pacifist. We have gone around and around about waterboarding and self defense on the Political Talk board. My point there about what you, EB, would do if these terrorists were doing what they do---rape women and young girls---to your wife and daughters would reveal just how non violent you are.

To this day you haven't answered that question.

You twist my hypothetical to mean that I have some kind of weird fascination with rape and child molestation in obfuscation. Which, in the end, reveals to us the truth: you know what you would do. You wouldn't turn the other cheek, you wouldn't lay hands on them and speak in tongues, you wouldn't teach them Search for Truth, you wouldn't pull a Dr. King nonviolent protest. No, you would physically protect your wife and daughters. We would join you. There's nothing ungodly about that.

So if I support our military protecting the homeland, if I support our intelligence services persuading wicked men who have demonic plans to kill many, many innocent men, women, and children to reveal their plans or to reveal the people who are making such plans, it does not run counter to my faith in the Gospel of Grace.

Muslim terrorists need the Gospel of Grace as much as anyone of us. Jesus loves them as much as he loves us. But they subscribe to a religion that demands they kill all of us who will not embrace the Koran or Allah. We need to find ways to get the gospel to them, and there are those who are trying. If I knew of someone I would be happy to support them. But if in the meantime our country's military finds them before we do, or our intelligence services get a hold of them before we do, I'm not going to criticize them doing all they can to protect us from harm.

But we are, we are different. I believe that is another fallacy of what you believe. Everyone is different in their own way, not everyone wants to torture people even if it was to save a thousand people. They wouldn't hurt anyone. I'm amazed of bravery like that.

Sure we are different. You have a head full of jet black hair, you are big and athletic, pumping iron for Jesus, you're smart and well liked. I'm short, bald, average, and not all that exceptional.

But that's not what I was talking about. I'm certain you know this, but I will speak it more clearly: we are both guilty of falling short of the glory of God. There is no fallacy in that belief because it is cemented in Scripture.

So, sin no more less a worse thing happen to you means what? So, John 5:14 was an idle threat? Why didn't Jesus explain to this guy that it was impossible for him to do what Jesus just prescribed? What about John 8:11? Jesus tells the woman that she had no accusers, and therefore He would not condemn her, but she was to no longer sin. 1 John 3:8 says those who continue to sin are of the devil?

I take no issue with these Scriptures or what they mean. We are forgiven by God and we are commanded to sin no more.

That's another thing which really people don't understand. You guys are always telling people that you are constantly doing bad things, when your Bible says not to do bad things. You excuse your behavior by saying that you can't help it because your a sinner.

Paul called himself chief of sinners after being converted, and called to be an Apostle. He didn't say "I was once the chiefest of sinners". I said it in present tense. Also in Romans 7 he shares the struggle of the believer, doing the things we don't want to do and not doing the things we want to do. He exclaimed "Oh wretched man that I am!" Not, "What a wretch I once was!"

I don't know who you are quoting but I haven't said "I'm constantly doing bad things." I do admit that I'm an unfinished work, and I still have the will of the flesh, and I still fall short of God's glory more often than I'd like. I yearn for perfection. I hunger for holiness. I reach for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Unless you have hired a PI to follow me around and he's got some dirt on me, I don't know how you can know what supposed behaviors I am excusing. Sometimes I fail because I'm still human. To err is human. Sometimes I fail because I'm foolish. But I'm not going to hide the fact that I still fail; in thought, in word, in deed. I'm guilty.

It's not an excuse to sin. It's reality. We are saved and sanctified. Peter exercised prejudice even though no one would doubt His salvation and His anointing and calling by God. Paul got into a dispute with Barnabas even though He was God's chosen vessel to bring the Gospel of Grace to the Gentiles.

We have a sister in the church who taught in prison. She at times would have inmates who were allowed to assist in the classes. She had one individual who was a Bible study leader, and very well versed in scripture, even had a prayer group. But she found out that he was transferred from another facility, and for something he did. Come to find out that he and one of his prayer partners were working in the prison dental office. While there they attacked and brutally raped the female dental assistant. Breaking the woman's jaw.

People backslide. It's reality.

I said all that to say this, the whole perpetual sinner form of religion is a Jail House Jesus religion. It preaches primarily that you cannot stop sinning, that you are so much a sinner that only your own death, burial, and resurrection can get you out of the sinning business.

Question: have you sinned since you became a Christian? If you have does that make you a perpetual sinner? There's a difference between someone who believes the grace of God is a license to sin and someone who believes the grace of God is God bestowing the perfect love of the Father upon us and giving us the impetus to obey Him because He first loved us and gave Himself as a ransom for us.

I John 2:1
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

I write this so you will not sin = that's the goal, the ideal, the bar
BUT IF ANYBODY DOES SIN = that's the reality

Christians sin. We aren't suppose to. We aren't expected to. We aren't allowed to. BUT, if we do---all is not lost. We have Jesus who is our attorney defending us before the judgment of God. And because He is the Righteous One, He has the right to defend us, and He does so on the basis of His own righteousness, which God imputes to us when we believe.

So, change, personal change isn't ever expected. Because after all you are a sinner. The rest of the world really doesn't buy it, and believe it is pretty hypocritical to read the Bible while watching porn on the Internet.

I don't know a person in the world who believes such nonsense. Every Christian I know expects people to change. Every preacher I know does. Every church I have associated with believes that. I believe it.

This is really a debate tactic to try to define your opponent in a way that suits you. Accuse him of believing that it's okay for Christians to read their Bibles while watching porn. Who would take a person like that seriously? No one of course. But then again, there isn't anyone around here that believes that, including me.

Bob Coy (a pastor in Fort Lauderdale) was sat down because he was addicted to Internet porn, and having sexual relations with the people who attend his 20,000 plus congregation in Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale. When he was busted he never addressed the congregation which he built with only a handful of people. He sent them a dear John letter which one of his assistants read to the people. You would think that was the end and the minister would seek rehabilitation, no longer to preach behind a pulpit. But that isn't the case in once a sinner always a sinner religion, the grace band-aid over a sucking, bleeding, bullet wound. People wanted Bob Coy back in the pulpit. They wanted his MARRIAGE sermons back on line. Why? Because aren't we all sinners!!! People who are on the outside of the three ring circus called American Churchanity just look with disgust. Shake their heads and say, "I may not know anything about the Bible or Jesus, but I know that garbage can't be it." Sad, but The American Industrial Church Complex of Once a Sinner Always a Sinner has hands dripping with blood from those they have strangled away from Christ.

Sad story.

I believe if a man falls, those who are spiritual should restore him per Galatians 6:1. If the man wasn't receptive to restoration, to going through a process that would help him personally get right with God, and live a life of integrity and purity, then it's unfortunate he continues to do what he's doing.

The idea of restoration for ministers is a different debate, but I do believe there are instances where it's appropriate. In other cases no.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Sometimes it takes me a while to think of what I want to say in response.

One can believe in the Gospel and God's grace and not have to be a pacifist. We have gone around and around about waterboarding and self defense on the Political Talk board. My point there about what you, EB, would do if these terrorists were doing what they do---rape women and young girls---to your wife and daughters would reveal just how non violent you are.

So, therefore you believe that there are levels to God's grace? Like Catholics who believe there are sins, which go up and down in increments? White lies, black lies? Little kid breaks a yard stick at five, you pat him on the head, but holding a AR-15 to the head of a Muslim's daughter while you question him on where his buddies are hiding is different? Not to consistent, but your religion isn't either.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

To this day you haven't answered that question.

You twist my hypothetical to mean that I have some kind of weird fascination with rape and child molestation in obfuscation.

No, you haven't been taking into consideration my posts to you. You take an extreme position to prove a point. You don't deal in reality because obviously that isn't the world in which you live. Too much television, news media? Too much Hollywood? I don't know, but over and over again talking about my wife and girls being raped so I would react, is a bit dramatically warped. When I know if a situation came down where you personally had a home invasion (which I don't think is a laughing matter) you would be at the mercy of the invaders. Even if you were armed AA-12. Your old, and young thugs trump old yardstick preachers. The only hope we have is Jesus Christ, and believing that we can fight off a weaponized home invasion, or any kind of bad situation without Jesus is stupid. Waterboarding terrorists and their family members? You haven't a clue about how all that works. Why do I say that with such certainty? Because if you had a clue about INTERROGATION you would have a shred of mercy in you. God's grace? Keep telling stories about 5 year olds breaking your yardsticks, because that is the amount of mercy in your religion.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

So if I support our military protecting the homeland,

Your homeland is heaven?

Homeland? Seriously?

There is a song that goes "This world is not my home I'm just a-passing through my treasures are laid up somewhere beyond the blue. The angels beckon me From heaven's open door and I can't feel at home
In this world anymore."

To be absent from the body is to be with Christ? DB, no military is going to protect you. Branch Davidians in Waco Texas found that out. Randy Weaver's wife in Ruby Ridge found that out. No, nay no my brother, Jesus is your ONLY protection. If you die, then you are with Him. Thrown into a furnace heated seven times hotter? Bro, would you go kicking and screaming?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

if I support our intelligence services persuading wicked men who have demonic plans to kill many, many innocent men, women, and children to reveal their plans or to reveal the people who are making such plans, it does not run counter to my faith in the Gospel of Grace.

Wicked men, who decided they were wicked? How about if they got the wrong people? The wrong information? How about if they make mistakes? What if they get a tip on someone you know personally? Even yourself? Intelligence Services???? SERIOUSLY!!!!