Rock Hudson Repented Before His Death

[berkeley]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

That's all he has, he can't spell, and he hates to lose an argument.

I have seen the shots that you throw at people. You're not exactly pleasant to be around.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by berkeley

I have seen the shots that you throw at people. You're not exactly pleasant to be around.

I'm sorry. I apologize to you.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Evang.Benincasa

I know, I know, you would really like to have a captive audience who sit idly by while you preach sweet daddy grace on one hand, and waterboarding, violent self defense, peppered with women and children being raped. That to me is like a bell rang by Pavlov. Listen DB, I am just fascinated by people like you.
Who say that they can't even figure out why God would save them, but would want to see Muslims tied down and waterboarded. Or anyone for that matter, any human being. I read your posts and just can't believe that you make comments that we all need the Holy Ghost, but would subject someone to torture?

Sometimes it takes me a while to think of what I want to say in response.

One can believe in the Gospel and God's grace and not have to be a pacifist. We have gone around and around about waterboarding and self defense on the Political Talk board. My point there about what you, EB, would do if these terrorists were doing what they do---rape women and young girls---to your wife and daughters would reveal just how non violent you are.

To this day you haven't answered that question.

You twist my hypothetical to mean that I have some kind of weird fascination with rape and child molestation in obfuscation. Which, in the end, reveals to us the truth: you know what you would do. You wouldn't turn the other cheek, you wouldn't lay hands on them and speak in tongues, you wouldn't teach them Search for Truth, you wouldn't pull a Dr. King nonviolent protest. No, you would physically protect your wife and daughters. We would join you. There's nothing ungodly about that.

So if I support our military protecting the homeland, if I support our intelligence services persuading wicked men who have demonic plans to kill many, many innocent men, women, and children to reveal their plans or to reveal the people who are making such plans, it does not run counter to my faith in the Gospel of Grace.

Muslim terrorists need the Gospel of Grace as much as anyone of us. Jesus loves them as much as he loves us. But they subscribe to a religion that demands they kill all of us who will not embrace the Koran or Allah. We need to find ways to get the gospel to them, and there are those who are trying. If I knew of someone I would be happy to support them. But if in the meantime our country's military finds them before we do, or our intelligence services get a hold of them before we do, I'm not going to criticize them doing all they can to protect us from harm.

But we are, we are different. I believe that is another fallacy of what you believe. Everyone is different in their own way, not everyone wants to torture people even if it was to save a thousand people. They wouldn't hurt anyone. I'm amazed of bravery like that.

Sure we are different. You have a head full of jet black hair, you are big and athletic, pumping iron for Jesus, you're smart and well liked. I'm short, bald, average, and not all that exceptional.

But that's not what I was talking about. I'm certain you know this, but I will speak it more clearly: we are both guilty of falling short of the glory of God. There is no fallacy in that belief because it is cemented in Scripture.

So, sin no more less a worse thing happen to you means what? So, John 5:14 was an idle threat? Why didn't Jesus explain to this guy that it was impossible for him to do what Jesus just prescribed? What about John 8:11? Jesus tells the woman that she had no accusers, and therefore He would not condemn her, but she was to no longer sin. 1 John 3:8 says those who continue to sin are of the devil?

I take no issue with these Scriptures or what they mean. We are forgiven by God and we are commanded to sin no more.

That's another thing which really people don't understand. You guys are always telling people that you are constantly doing bad things, when your Bible says not to do bad things. You excuse your behavior by saying that you can't help it because your a sinner.

Paul called himself chief of sinners after being converted, and called to be an Apostle. He didn't say "I was once the chiefest of sinners". I said it in present tense. Also in Romans 7 he shares the struggle of the believer, doing the things we don't want to do and not doing the things we want to do. He exclaimed "Oh wretched man that I am!" Not, "What a wretch I once was!"

I don't know who you are quoting but I haven't said "I'm constantly doing bad things." I do admit that I'm an unfinished work, and I still have the will of the flesh, and I still fall short of God's glory more often than I'd like. I yearn for perfection. I hunger for holiness. I reach for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

Unless you have hired a PI to follow me around and he's got some dirt on me, I don't know how you can know what supposed behaviors I am excusing. Sometimes I fail because I'm still human. To err is human. Sometimes I fail because I'm foolish. But I'm not going to hide the fact that I still fail; in thought, in word, in deed. I'm guilty.

It's not an excuse to sin. It's reality. We are saved and sanctified. Peter exercised prejudice even though no one would doubt His salvation and His anointing and calling by God. Paul got into a dispute with Barnabas even though He was God's chosen vessel to bring the Gospel of Grace to the Gentiles.

We have a sister in the church who taught in prison. She at times would have inmates who were allowed to assist in the classes. She had one individual who was a Bible study leader, and very well versed in scripture, even had a prayer group. But she found out that he was transferred from another facility, and for something he did. Come to find out that he and one of his prayer partners were working in the prison dental office. While there they attacked and brutally raped the female dental assistant. Breaking the woman's jaw.

People backslide. It's reality.

I said all that to say this, the whole perpetual sinner form of religion is a Jail House Jesus religion. It preaches primarily that you cannot stop sinning, that you are so much a sinner that only your own death, burial, and resurrection can get you out of the sinning business.

Question: have you sinned since you became a Christian? If you have does that make you a perpetual sinner? There's a difference between someone who believes the grace of God is a license to sin and someone who believes the grace of God is God bestowing the perfect love of the Father upon us and giving us the impetus to obey Him because He first loved us and gave Himself as a ransom for us.

I John 2:1
My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father—Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

I write this so you will not sin = that's the goal, the ideal, the bar
BUT IF ANYBODY DOES SIN = that's the reality

Christians sin. We aren't suppose to. We aren't expected to. We aren't allowed to. BUT, if we do---all is not lost. We have Jesus who is our attorney defending us before the judgment of God. And because He is the Righteous One, He has the right to defend us, and He does so on the basis of His own righteousness, which God imputes to us when we believe.

So, change, personal change isn't ever expected. Because after all you are a sinner. The rest of the world really doesn't buy it, and believe it is pretty hypocritical to read the Bible while watching porn on the Internet.

I don't know a person in the world who believes such nonsense. Every Christian I know expects people to change. Every preacher I know does. Every church I have associated with believes that. I believe it.

This is really a debate tactic to try to define your opponent in a way that suits you. Accuse him of believing that it's okay for Christians to read their Bibles while watching porn. Who would take a person like that seriously? No one of course. But then again, there isn't anyone around here that believes that, including me.

Bob Coy (a pastor in Fort Lauderdale) was sat down because he was addicted to Internet porn, and having sexual relations with the people who attend his 20,000 plus congregation in Calvary Chapel Fort Lauderdale. When he was busted he never addressed the congregation which he built with only a handful of people. He sent them a dear John letter which one of his assistants read to the people. You would think that was the end and the minister would seek rehabilitation, no longer to preach behind a pulpit. But that isn't the case in once a sinner always a sinner religion, the grace band-aid over a sucking, bleeding, bullet wound. People wanted Bob Coy back in the pulpit. They wanted his MARRIAGE sermons back on line. Why? Because aren't we all sinners!!! People who are on the outside of the three ring circus called American Churchanity just look with disgust. Shake their heads and say, "I may not know anything about the Bible or Jesus, but I know that garbage can't be it." Sad, but The American Industrial Church Complex of Once a Sinner Always a Sinner has hands dripping with blood from those they have strangled away from Christ.

Sad story.

I believe if a man falls, those who are spiritual should restore him per Galatians 6:1. If the man wasn't receptive to restoration, to going through a process that would help him personally get right with God, and live a life of integrity and purity, then it's unfortunate he continues to do what he's doing.

The idea of restoration for ministers is a different debate, but I do believe there are instances where it's appropriate. In other cases no.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Sometimes it takes me a while to think of what I want to say in response.

One can believe in the Gospel and God's grace and not have to be a pacifist. We have gone around and around about waterboarding and self defense on the Political Talk board. My point there about what you, EB, would do if these terrorists were doing what they do---rape women and young girls---to your wife and daughters would reveal just how non violent you are.

So, therefore you believe that there are levels to God's grace? Like Catholics who believe there are sins, which go up and down in increments? White lies, black lies? Little kid breaks a yard stick at five, you pat him on the head, but holding a AR-15 to the head of a Muslim's daughter while you question him on where his buddies are hiding is different? Not to consistent, but your religion isn't either.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

To this day you haven't answered that question.

You twist my hypothetical to mean that I have some kind of weird fascination with rape and child molestation in obfuscation.

No, you haven't been taking into consideration my posts to you. You take an extreme position to prove a point. You don't deal in reality because obviously that isn't the world in which you live. Too much television, news media? Too much Hollywood? I don't know, but over and over again talking about my wife and girls being raped so I would react, is a bit dramatically warped. When I know if a situation came down where you personally had a home invasion (which I don't think is a laughing matter) you would be at the mercy of the invaders. Even if you were armed AA-12. Your old, and young thugs trump old yardstick preachers. The only hope we have is Jesus Christ, and believing that we can fight off a weaponized home invasion, or any kind of bad situation without Jesus is stupid. Waterboarding terrorists and their family members? You haven't a clue about how all that works. Why do I say that with such certainty? Because if you had a clue about INTERROGATION you would have a shred of mercy in you. God's grace? Keep telling stories about 5 year olds breaking your yardsticks, because that is the amount of mercy in your religion.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

So if I support our military protecting the homeland,

Your homeland is heaven?

Homeland? Seriously?

There is a song that goes "This world is not my home I'm just a-passing through my treasures are laid up somewhere beyond the blue. The angels beckon me From heaven's open door and I can't feel at home
In this world anymore."

To be absent from the body is to be with Christ? DB, no military is going to protect you. Branch Davidians in Waco Texas found that out. Randy Weaver's wife in Ruby Ridge found that out. No, nay no my brother, Jesus is your ONLY protection. If you die, then you are with Him. Thrown into a furnace heated seven times hotter? Bro, would you go kicking and screaming?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

if I support our intelligence services persuading wicked men who have demonic plans to kill many, many innocent men, women, and children to reveal their plans or to reveal the people who are making such plans, it does not run counter to my faith in the Gospel of Grace.

Wicked men, who decided they were wicked? How about if they got the wrong people? The wrong information? How about if they make mistakes? What if they get a tip on someone you know personally? Even yourself? Intelligence Services???? SERIOUSLY!!!!

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Muslim terrorists need the Gospel of Grace as much as anyone of us. Jesus loves them as much as he loves us. But they subscribe to a religion that demands they kill all of us who will not embrace the Koran or Allah.

But? Yeah, a "but" can kill your message deader than fried chicken.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

We need to find ways to get the gospel to them and there are those who are trying. If I knew of someone I would be happy to support them.

Dropping a ton of yardsticks on them from an airplane? Whispering the Gospel into their ears while they are being waterboarded? Telling them that if they believe YOUR gospel they cannot stop sinning therefore they can believe what you believe and still have the same behavior. How is that a good thing? Culture has to change drastically, band-aids on bullet wounds cannot convert the Middle East. It might work in a world full of five year old Jedis, and their grandmothers. But not in the Middle Eastern culture.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

But if in the meantime our country's military finds them before we do, or our intelligence services get a hold of them before we do, I'm not going to criticize them doing all they can to protect us from harm.

Dude, you need to read the above post quote again. You were going to support a missionary to Islam? What was he supposed to be doing? Dodging bullets while he is having a Bible study with Achmed?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Sure we are different. You have a head full of jet black hair, you are big and athletic, pumping iron for Jesus, you're smart and well liked. I'm short, bald, average, and not all that exceptional.

But that's not what I was talking about. I'm certain you know this, but I will speak it more clearly: we are both guilty of falling short of the glory of God. There is no fallacy in that belief because it is cemented in Scripture.

That wasn't written to Americans, that was written to Judeans, Diaspora Judeans, then Romans. They understood what it meant in context, because they still had an active working operating Law system still in place. Complete with operating legitimate priest craft with animal sacrifices. They still had people who were legitimate Judeans, and Israelis who had genealogies pedigrees which proved who they were and who they were their relations.
These Judeans believed that just because they were born Judeans and Israelis they weren't part of the dogs, pigs, and creeping things which they viewed the Gentile Romans. They believed that by their good works performed at the temple, and through their oral traditions which they kept assured salvation without Messiah. They were being told that all their righteousness in the Judean law system was useless without Christ who was the fulfillment of the transgression of the law. Therefore through His blood, and His Holy Ghost they were able to be in true relationship with God. They would become the Temple, God would dwell in them, and lead them. They would be the Body of God. No one does works to be saved, that is futile. But you produce works because you are saved. You bring forth fruit that is eatable by God. You become a good tree, which produces good fruit.

The Judeans, and Israelites were just going through the motions like it was a job. Some offered the sacrifices of Cain and some the sacrifices of Abel. One just wanted to throw their first fruits before God to just get it over with. While the other was in love with God and wanted the worship to linger. The other was exposed because of his empty religious behavior, and became jealous of his brothers true connection with God. Hence the hate between the religious Judeans, and the Apostolic Judeans in the first century A.D..

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I take no issue with these Scriptures or what they mean. We are forgiven by God and we are commanded to sin no more.

Emphasis on COMMANDED. But not as labor with struggle, while despising every step. But loving God, and allowing His Holy Ghost to lead. God works with everyone on a case to case basis, and everyone is different. God works with us on different levels. It is wisdom to allow GOD to work with someone as they are growing to ADULTHOOD in Christ. the whole sin business is not a locked collar to a gigantic chain around the neck of a saint. They shouldn't be beaten over the head that they are still sinners, they will always sin. We are in the A C (Apostolic Church) not A A (Alcoholics Anonymous ) where the person gets up and constantly reminds himself he is an alcoholic. Who the Son makes free is FREE INDEED.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Paul called himself chief of sinners after being converted, and called to be an Apostle. He didn't say "I was once the chiefest of sinners". I said it in present tense. Also in Romans 7 he shares the struggle of the believer, doing the things we don't want to do and not doing the things we want to do. He exclaimed "Oh wretched man that I am!" Not, "What a wretch I once was!"

That's because your taking the epistle out of its context. Paul in 1 Timothy 1:15, is following 1 Timothy 1:13. You see DB, if anyone has the sense to read the entire chapter you are teaching. They will raise their hand in the middle of your preaching, then ask you, why are you telling the congregation that Paul was an active sinner? 1 Timothy 1:13 has Paul making the statement " though formerly I was a blasphemer, persecutor, and insolent opponent. But I received mercy because I had acted ignorantly in unbelief."
The apostle was saying that he was the leader of sinning? Sometimes you guys who preach that stuff, need to take a pause to listen to yourselves.
You are saying that Paul was making the statement that he was THE LEADER IN SINNING!!!! So, if we are to take your doctrine and place it in Paul's first century Middle East we would have Paul preaching to Churches (churches where he actually arrested their family members) telling them that he might be capable of doing that again? Or better yet, since you say that he was saying he was a LEADER IN SINNING, then he most certainly would do those things again?

How Bipolar is that doctrine?

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

I don't know who you are quoting but I haven't said "I'm constantly doing bad things." I do admit that I'm an unfinished work, and I still have the will of the flesh, and I still fall short of God's glory more often than I'd like. I yearn for perfection. I hunger for holiness. I reach for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

But your not finished until you die? The finished work is you not coming to spiritual maturity in Christ Jesus, but that you need to get to heaven to be finished. Because after all you interpret Oh wretched man that I am is that Paul is really a psychopath trying to live for God under his own human discipline. Yet, Paul was using an example, not using himself as the example.
Because in the chapter (Romans 6:6) prior to his comment on the wretched man, he says that the wretched man was crucified with Christ's death, and therefore who are no longer under bondage on sin. You are therefore a free man, to leave the jail. You are teaching that while you are a freeman you still remain in the prison.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Unless you have hired a PI to follow me around and he's got some dirt on me, I don't know how you can know what supposed behaviors I am excusing. Sometimes I fail because I'm still human. To err is human.

Quoting Seneca? His quotes never helped his student Nero.

Where did Jesus, or Paul use the excuse of being a human?

Bro, there are things an old man should know, and a old man should never excuse. Hence the reason they are called elders.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Sometimes I fail because I'm foolish. But I'm not going to hide the fact that I still fail; in thought, in word, in deed. I'm guilty.

Do you know how to read a tape measure and a micrometer? If you are very careful, you can use them accurately. If you have used them for years, your accuracy goes up without carefulness. Meaning you are able to do it like its second nature. But, we always measure twice cut once? Bro, mistakes can be made, they are made, but if you keep messing up with woodworking, mechanics, or as a machinist, you won't keep your job. Sadly so-called Christianity never accepts a responsibility to do an excellent job. It seems like it is always preaching a bare minimum. Measuring once, and doing the cut without even thinking. Once upon a time people took pride into doing an excellent job, they believed religion was reverent, and behaved that way. Not anymore, you cannot even buy a good oil filter, from a company that termed the phrase "pay me know or pay me later." We fail because we don't care, we are foolish because we don't think before we jump. People have jobs which if they fail people could be injured. They fail, but they never make excuses for those failures. No one is saying hide anything, just try to get with the program. If you are a mechanic do your job to the greatest level. If you are a Christian stop using your religion as an excuse for shoddy craftsmanship.

Meaning Christian should be Christ like? Then be Christ like to the greatest ability.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

It's not an excuse to sin. It's reality.

But it is an excuse, face it, what you say is Christianity totally focuses on that you cannot get it together in this world. You still fail; in thought, in word, in deed. Your guilty? You wear it like a badge, like you are on humble steroids? The whole thing about a preacher getting to the pulpit and saying that he is really preaching to himself? My lands, why are you in that pulpit? Looking at your wife and children thinking to yourself "if these guys are that banged up, how are they going to help me?" Yet, the mantra is that they can't, there is no way out, Jesus set some far out unobtainable example?

But 1 John 3 makes this statement "every man that has this hope in him purifies himself, even as JESUS is pure." it also states "little children, let no man deceive you: he that does righteousness is righteous, even as JESUS is righteous." That's supposed to be the reality! We shouldn't make excuses for the scriptures, they say what they say. If you or I don't line up with those scriptures than tough luck on our part. Go sin no more, and then say you agree with that scripture, then go sin? You can make an error as a machinist, or carpenter, but there is a reason. Good mechanic doesn't blame his tools? So, why try to wrest the scripture to fit our shoddy performance?

Originally Posted by deacon blues

We are saved and sanctified. Peter exercised prejudice even though no one would doubt His salvation and His anointing and calling by God.

Wow, so even historical context holds no meaning to you? Peter wouldn't go into a Roman's house because Peter hung out with a teacher who called Greek Syrian women little yapping dogs. It wasn't prejudice for them, the Greek Romans ate pigs, snails, snakes, used pig blood in their meals. Hence the reason why God had to give Peter a vision. Doubting Peter's salvation comes with a young apostle named Paul who rebukes the older apostle to his face in front of everyone Galatians 2:11-21. Why? Because Peter was to be BLAMED Galatians 2:11. Why? Because Peter had to learn some information he was missing 2 Peter 3:15-16.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

Paul got into a dispute with Barnabas even though He was God's chosen vessel to bring the Gospel of Grace to the Gentiles.

No one can say for sure what the dispute was about. Also you are assuming that it was Barnabas' and John Marcus' issues that are at fault. It looks like the Apostle was the issue, and therefore he extends an olive branch to John Marcus.

Originally Posted by deacon blues

People backslide. It's reality.

You made be surprised that those who went back never went forward.