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View Poll Results: Are all Catholics lost?
yes 5 25.00%
no 10 50.00%
maybe 5 25.00%
Voters: 20. You may not vote on this poll

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  #1  
Old 07-11-2016, 11:48 PM
shazeep shazeep is offline
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Re: Are all Catholics lost?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jason B View Post
Thank you.

I do not believe that those who deny the cross, deny that Jesus died on the cross, or deny that He rose again from the grave are saved. I don't believe there is any salvation outside of Jesus Christ, and though I believe that God could even have reconciled all of creation to Himself through Christ (universalism), He seems to have chosen to limit salvation only to those who will repent of their sins and believe in Christ during THIS lifetime. Hence, I would agree with you that athiests, agnostics, Hindus, Buddhists, Rastafaris, Zoroastrians, Muslims, Jews, and anyone else who denies the truth of the atonement of Jesus on the cross cannot be saved. *BUT* that wasn't the subject of the thread, nor in any of my postings here or elsewhere have I ever proposed such to be saved (contrary to the misleading implications of Benincasa). My only argument is that I think there is a Biblical case that can be made that there is hope of salvation for those who claim to know Christ, believe in His atoning death, and in His resurrection, in the forgiveness of sins through Him, regardless of denomination, because we are justified by faith. Not by works, and not by theology, soteriolgy, eschatology, anthropology, ecclesiology, or anything else that we tend to make necessary to the minimizing of God's grace.
my guess, from many, many Scriptures, is that God is even more gracious than this, but this mostly just involves not being in denial about passages that are not immediately understood, even though they are plain--they just contrast with the precious and spurious law that religion demands, and ignore the spiritual nature that the words are trying to convey.

And i am sorry, but it is strictly Mike's fantasy that i have denied the cross in any form, that is strictly a means to deflect from his problem.
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Old 07-11-2016, 11:51 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Are all Catholics lost?

For the record:

INTRODUCTION TO MY BOOK "THE WAY MORE PERFECTLY."


The question of what the New Testament teaches about the plan of salvation varies greatly in the Christian world. There are those who claim requirements that some may feel are lacking, taking away from the Word of God, while there are those whose requirements might be considered too much, adding legalistic demands that are not truly part of salvation.

To some, being saved means that someone has accepted Jesus into his/her heart. That’s likely the most popular concept today. It’s commonly said that salvation comes when a person makes Jesus Christ one’s personal Saviour. There is no question that Jesus indeed must become our personal Saviour, however, just how exactly is this accomplished according to Scripture?

What does the New Testament actually teach about this? Does the Bible tell us to make Jesus our personal Saviour, and then leave it at that? Are these statements even found in the Bible? What does the Bible really tell us about this important issue?

Over the years, I’ve come to notice that many people tend to approach the issue of salvation from an emotional perspective rather than a truly biblical perspective. Those who approach this matter from an emotional perspective alone will end up surveying all of the varying denominational plans of salvation, and discover that every denomination has sincere adherents. The conclusions that result from such an assessment are actually based more on an assumption of what God should do with a soul in such circumstances, rather than on what God has said He will actually do as written in the Bible.

The types of questions that surface from this emotional perspective include whether or not God will require everything as stated in His Word about salvation for those who end up falling short. Their assumptions lead them to believe that as long as people are sincere, God wouldn't allow them to be lost even if they never correctly knew or understood the full plan of salvation. Many end up looking back to their dear, departed loved ones who loved the Lord with all of their heart, when confronted with a view that might not agree with the way their loved ones experienced “salvation.” However, if we take the more trustworthy approach of standing solely upon the Word of God and what it states regarding salvation, without adding to or taking away from it, then we will come to a conclusion that is far removed from emotional assumptions.

With all this being said, what is the best way to deal with the question of who is actually saved and who isn't? Some are quick to say that if a person has not followed the biblical plan of salvation, then they are lost and bound for hell. Others claim we cannot judge at all, even if the Bible itself outlines the process and people do not follow it. Then the popular question arises regarding how God would deal with a person who is partway through the salvation process and suddenly dies.

Many who believe in a plan of salvation that involves more than just “one simple step” of mental assent consider those not fully compliant to be in a state similar to that of an unborn fetus. There’s life present, but actual new birth has not yet occurred. Since an unborn fetus is considered an actual soul, then these people feel such an individual is still saved even though actual new birth has not yet occurred. However, they believe such a person will not have any rewards for having worked for the Lord when they make it past judgment day.

What are we to do? Should we stand on what the Bible alone says, and propose that all who don’t qualify are lost, or do we leave it up to the Lord to decide on Judgment Day?
One time I heard a preacher declare that Jesus alone holds the keys of death and hell and that we, the Church, were only given the keys of the Kingdom. He believed that this was grounds enough to declare that it wasn’t our place to say who’s lost when it comes to this sort of question but that we are only to simply tell them how to get saved. The only thing wrong with that idea is that in Revelation 1, the keys of death and hell actually correspond to the keys of the Kingdom. Though I do not believe that this minister’s use of scriptural references referring to the keys of death and hell refer to such a position, I must say that I strongly agree with his conclusion to leave it in God's hands.

Having had numerous conversations with many preachers and Christians from all types of ministries over the years, I have arrived at what I feel is the best conclusion. I simply and prayerfully tell people what the Bible says about how to be saved, and leave it up to God to decide what He will do with a soul who falls short of it.

Why do people feel the need to say what God will do with a soul who doesn’t fully comply with what’s required for salvation, when the Bible is silent about what He will do with a soul in certain situations?

I cannot agree with the people who approach this topic with an emotional response and feel that coming short of the Christian plan of salvation means one is still “saved.” Neither can I side with those who are rigid and claim everyone is lost who does not fully comply. I only do what the believers did in the Book of the Acts of the Apostles—preach the truth in love, and nothing more or less.

Did the Apostles preach salvation with threats of hell?

Did Peter, Paul and the other apostles throw threats of “hell” into the equation when they informed people as to how to be saved? Priscilla and Aquilla educated Apollos in what the Book of Acts describes as a more perfect manner about the way of salvation. Did they say he was lost for hell before he would respond favourably with his newfound understanding? Did they say he had better qualify himself for God by obedience to what they added to his understanding or else he’d be lost for perdition? No. Look for yourself! They only told him more than what he currently knew, and we are informed that he complied.

Acts 18:24-26 And a certain Jew named Apollos, born at Alexandria, an eloquent man, and mighty in the scriptures, came to Ephesus. This man was instructed in the way of the Lord; and being fervent in the spirit, he spake and taught diligently the things of the Lord, knowing only the baptism of John. And he began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

We don’t read he was lost for hell before he heard of the way more perfectly, nor that he’d be lost for hell should he disobey it. We only read that Apollos was instructed “in the way of the Lord” before he heard more truth. We’re not told if he was “saved” or not. When we read about the extent of his knowledge, we find he only understood the baptism of John the Baptist. His situation reminds me of the disciples of John in Ephesus in Acts 19 who hadn’t yet heard of the Holy Ghost baptism, nor of water baptism in the name of Jesus Christ. They only knew of John’s baptism unto repentance.

Were they saved? We’re not forthrightly told. Some feel that Paul’s question to John’s disciples as to whether or not they had received the Holy Ghost since they believed, infers to us that they were saved. They reason that it’s the element of believing that saves us. However, they knew nothing about Jesus Christ. Can one be saved without having known anything about Jesus Christ? Paul had to inform them that John was a precursor to the ministry of Jesus. Their belief didn’t include the cross of Jesus whatsoever!

At any rate, hell wasn’t mentioned to either the disciples of John in Ephesus or to Apollos. Why did the disciples not make any reference to hell? There’s no doubting hell is real. But take notice that they didn’t hurl the issue of hell at everyone to whom they ministered in the Book of Acts. I think we should pattern our method of relating truth to people after the same manner and with the same understanding.

continued...
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"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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Old 07-11-2016, 11:52 PM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Are all Catholics lost?

..continued.


There are those who consider people to be unrighteous judges when they condemn people who don’t follow their beliefs, and label them as people who are bound for hell. Yet some of these same people who labeled others as judges will also claim that a soul is saved when there’s really no actual ground in the New Testament to say so! We all have the potential to judge on both sides of the fence—too loosely, as well as too harshly. Why can’t we just leave the eternal destination of a soul out of the picture and just preach the truth in love? We should stick to what the Bible itself says. It’s okay to not know anything more with regards to someone’s destiny before they heard the truth.

Apostolic in Approach

I desire to be truly Apostolic in my approach, and teach only what the apostles taught. I not only want to preach the apostles’ doctrine of how to be saved, but to also do it in the same manner in which the apostles and others throughout the Book of Acts did. If they didn’t threaten anyone with hell every time they preached the Word of God, then neither should we.

Proverbs 11:30 The fruit of the righteous is a tree of life; and he that winneth souls is wise.

The life we offer to lost souls is like the fruit from the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden.

Salvation providing eternal life ought to come from every born again Christian as they minister the truth of the gospel to the world around them. Ministering the truth provides eternal life as much as if the fruit from the Tree of Life in the Garden of Eden was offered to sinful mankind. God said that Adam would live forever should he eat of the fruit from the Tree of Life after he had sinned and was condemned to death. Knowledge of the plan of salvation is the most wonderful thing that anyone could ever learn. But only those who have wisdom can successfully bless someone with that kind of truth. Only those with understanding will see people receive and obey the truth they offer.

Fruit also speaks about the fruit of the Spirit mentioned in Galatians 5—love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith, meekness and kindness. Do we share the truth with these characteristics evident in ourselves?

Again, we know there’s a hell comprised of fire and torment. While many today do not hold such a view, I most conclusively do! But I shudder when I hear people so casually condemn a person’s destiny as one bound for hell. That’s not only a severe accusation, but also such a serious subject to consider when one stops to think of how eternally-effecting such a fate is.

Let’s be sure to stand on what we know the Bible clearly states about salvation, and handle it in the same manner in which the servants of the Lord in the Book of Acts did. As you minister to a soul, do it gracefully and follow the apostles’ way of relating truth with only the elements they included.

I do not agree that it’s a manner of grace to say that someone is saved even if they don’t follow the way in which the Bible says we are saved. Nevertheless, I do strongly believe that we must preach the truth in love and grace. Some people are far too sharp and cutting in the manner in which they present the gospel. The apostle Paul stated that we must preach the truth, but do so in love. He also said we need to avoid fighting with people, and do our best to keep them from opposing themselves with walls of stubbornness that cause them to disregard the Word.

Many believers are going to be held accountable for the damnation of some souls who rejected the gospel due to the harsh manner in which they presented it to them.

Ephesians 4:15 But speaking the truth in love, …

2 Timothy 2:24-26 And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; And they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.

Consider carefully and prayerfully what you’re about to read in this book. Be challenged to fulfill what the Scriptures teach about the subject of salvation. In the end, it’s not going to be our assumptions or opinions that determine who is and who isn’t saved. It’s going to be God alone, and God has provided us with His Word describing the issue in detail. Avoid the temptation to judge people either way apart from what the Bible actually states. Don’t place anyone in heaven whom the Bible clearly doesn’t, nor place anyone in hell whom the Bible clearly doesn’t.

Do We Judge?

We’re meant to judge people, but only those within the Church. So many people today make the mistake of saying we’re not supposed to judge anybody over anything. However, that’s not true. Paul stated that we’re meant to judge those who claim to be members of the Church, but that God will judge those who aren’t:

1 Corinthians 5:12-13 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within? But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.

When Jesus spoke of our need to not judge lest we ourselves be judged, He didn’t mean for us to believe that we should simply never judge anyone. He actually implied that we can judge people, but only if we understand that we’ll be held accountable for a particular issue in the same measure in which we dispense it to others. If we’re righteous in our behaviour, then we have a right to judge unrighteous behaviour.

Matthew 7:1-2 Judge not, that ye be not judged. For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.

However, we can only go as far as the Bible allows us. Yes, one might assume that if someone does not fulfill what the Bible demands for salvation, then that person is lost. However, I insist that we still maintain a spirit of carefulness. I must stress again that the apostles of the Lord Jesus Christ didn’t make harsh statements about who was bound for hell in their sermons to the lost as we find in many modern sermons.

With all that being said, I personally wouldn't want to be standing in the shoes of someone who hasn’t fulfilled the full plan of salvation as taught by the apostles of Jesus Christ, whether one knew about it or not. But in the end, beyond having shared what the Bible stated about salvation, I am responsible for myself. I can only relate to others what I myself see in the Bible as the plan of salvation. What others do with that is between them and God.

Dear reader, salvation is far too serious and important to just assume what God might or should do with a person who didn’t fully comply with what He actually said in His Word about salvation. People may know the correct plan of salvation but may spoil it through legalistic teachings, while others may not even have the correct Biblical plan of salvation at all.

Let’s see what the Bible has to say about this subject.
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"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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Old 08-10-2016, 07:39 AM
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mfblume mfblume is offline
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Re: Are all Catholics lost?

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Originally Posted by shazeep View Post
And i am sorry, but it is strictly Mike's fantasy that i have denied the cross in any form, that is strictly a means to deflect from his problem.
...From the guy who says muslims who believe the Koran when it says Jesus DID NOT DIE ON THE CROSS can be saved if they keep the golden rule.
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