It's Your Fault People Are Homosexual

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Short on time, but a quick look makes me think you actually proved one of my points here.

Paul speaks of a LAW of sin, not a FORCE. Moreover, he clearly stated in ch 6 that bondage to sin begins with a voluntary act of the individual.

Be back later.

It's both, Esaias!.

The law of sin is stated in Romans 7:21

Romans 7:21 I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me.

The law states that a FORCE kicks into effect we WE try to do good. WE is you and I without the help of God. WE, ON OUR OWN, without God's help, try to do good and WE WILL ULTIMATELY FAIL.

But WITH GOD it's a different story:

Philippians 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

Contrasted from:

Romans 7:19-20 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.


Paul said the same thing earlier, before he realized it was a law in his younger years:

Romans 7:7-8 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet. (8) But sin, taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.

That force is dormant, as it were, until a commandment comes. When that commandment comes and we TRY to do good, it is alive and well and overcomes our will to do good and makes us do bad.

Aquila has it right. Our flesh has URGES --- everyone's flesh NO one is exempt! It's an innate force.

How did it get there? ADAM.

Paul said SIN was the culprit NOT HIMSELF:

Romans 7:19-20 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Why was it no more Paul? That is because Paul will to do good. So, the old saying is a lie when it says WHERE THERE'S A WILL THERE'S A WAY. Paul had the will. But could not find the ability to perform it.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Paul said SIN was the culprit NOT HIMSELF:

Romans 7:19-20 For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me.

Why was it no more Paul? That is because Paul will to do good. So, the old saying is a lie when it says WHERE THERE'S A WILL THERE'S A WAY. Paul had the will. But could not find the ability to perform it.

How is Paul then guilty of committing sin, when it is not him doing it?

And, why do we tell sinners "you have sinned" when we should be telling them "it's not you, it's not your fault, it's not even a case of the devil made you do it, why, you didn't even do it anyway! It's this invisible, mystical, force of sin that is acting out through your body, just like a demon possessed man! Why, you don't need repentance, you just need us to lay hands on you and have God bestow deliverance and healing on you!"

If we take Paul literally and exactly to mean that he himself DID NOT SIN but rather "sin did it", then we must take him literally and exactly when he says he was ALIVE before he learned the commands of God. We must also take him literally that all this described Paul AT THE TIME HE WROTE.

If however, we acknowledge that Paul was not describing his THEN CURRENT CONDITION, and further when we acknowledge that Paul was not literally "alive" before he learned God's law, then we have no need whatsoever to take him to mean that individuals are not the ones committing their sins. Instead, we can understand him - IN LIGHT OF ALL HE SAID IN CHAPTERS 1 THROUGH 6 PREVIOUSLY, and in CHAPTER 8 FOLLOWING - we can understand him describing the condition of the unregenerate who acknowledge mentally the superiority and rightness of God's commandments, but who are still in bondage to the law of sin and death, which bondage they entered into BECAUSE THEY YIELDED TO SIN (ch 6), JUST AS the woman who is married is bound to her husband until one of them DIES.

When Paul says "to will is with me" he does not mean he actually exercises his volition to obey God. Rather, he means he intellectually acknowledges the rightness of God's ways and in fact he may have desires to obey God and do his commandments. But he does not actually DO them. which means he does not WILL them.

I think you are using the word "will" in two different ways and not recognising the differences in meaning. To will something is to actually choose something, to choose a course of action. It is not merely to wish, or desire, something. A person can "wish" they were a Christian and yet never become one.

Take a drunk. He knows drinking is wrong. He knows it's bad. He "wants to quit", he wishes he was a sober man. He can honestly say "to will is present with me", but suppose he never puts forth any actual volition to get off the drink? Suppose he never actually DECIDES to STOP DRINKING. Suppose he never actually CHOOSES to say no to alcohol. Instead, he repeatedly CHOOSES to get drunk. He has not actually "willed" to quit, in the sense of actually choosing to be sober. And suppose the temptations are so great that he melts in defeat and surrender at the slightest thought of alcohol? He FAILS TO GO TO GOD FOR HELP. He fails to pray. He fails to seek mercy from God, he fails to allow Christ to sanctify him by faith. Why? Because he REALLY chooses the drink, not sobriety. He wishes, he daydreams, his reason tells him the right thing to do... but he desires to get drunk at all costs, even the cost of his soul.

Is such a man a slave? Absolutely! and he will earn his slave wages, which is death. Why? Because he has NOT DIED TO HIS SIN. What does it mean to "die to sin"? What does it mean to "crucify the flesh"? What does it mean that the "old man is dead"? It means the WILL or CHOICE to practice sin is no more, replaced with the will or choice to obey God. As Paul said, "AS you have yielded yourselves to sin... so now yield yourselves unto God" (ch 6). And according to chapter 8, Christ's death on the cross is what will produce in the hearts and lives of those who receive Him by faith the actual performance of the will of God, through the Spirit.

"To will is present with me" does not mean he actually WILLS to obey God in the sense of actually CHOOSING, actually putting forth the volitions of obeying God. Rather it means that he knows the right thing to do, and may even want to do the right thing. But he also desires to sin, and sin is his master, so he must obey sin rather than God. Why? Because he has yielded himself to obey sin (ch 6).

Chapter 6 contains the clear and unambiguous doctrine of Paul on the nature of sin and righteousness as it manifests in a person's life. Chapter 7 cannot be isolated from what is said in chapter 6. The popular "sin did it, not me" interpretation is the result of taking ch 7 out of context. It also leads to that favorite hiding place of sinners - "I can't help it. It's not MY fault! And therefore I AM NOT TO BLAME."

[jediwill83]

If it wasn't our fault,God couldn't send us to Hell for it....

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

How is Paul then guilty of committing sin, when it is not him doing it?

First of all, the question is what did Paul mean that it was not him that was the issue, but sin in him. Did he say it or not? What did he mean by it?

Reading the context carefully, he realized his will was intact as far as wanting to do good. But when he tried to do what he wanted to do, he found he could not succeed. Sin was the reason he could not do good, not himself, personally.

Now, that does not mean we're not responsible.

And, why do we tell sinners "you have sinned" when we should be telling them "it's not you, it's not your fault, it's not even a case of the devil made you do it, why, you didn't even do it anyway!

No one said it's not OUR FAULT. Stay faithful to my words I use.

It's this invisible, mystical, force of sin that is acting out through your body, just like a demon possessed man! Why, you don't need repentance, you just need us to lay hands on you and have God bestow deliverance and healing on you!"

Sin is in the flesh and you cannot cast our flesh. But you are not explaining what Paull actually meant if you disagree with my words.

If we take Paul literally and exactly to mean that he himself DID NOT SIN but rather "sin did it", then we must take him literally and exactly when he says he was ALIVE before he learned the commands of God. We must also take him literally that all this described Paul AT THE TIME HE WROTE.

Paul SINNED. No one is denying that. But THE CAUSE of him comitting sin was this irresistable force inside him.

If however, we acknowledge that Paul was not describing his THEN CURRENT CONDITION, and further when we acknowledge that Paul was not literally "alive" before he learned God's law, then we have no need whatsoever to take him to mean that individuals are not the ones committing their sins. Instead, we can understand him - IN LIGHT OF ALL HE SAID IN CHAPTERS 1 THROUGH 6 PREVIOUSLY, and in CHAPTER 8 FOLLOWING - we can understand him describing the condition of the unregenerate who acknowledge mentally the superiority and rightness of God's commandments, but who are still in bondage to the law of sin and death, which bondage they entered into BECAUSE THEY YIELDED TO SIN (ch 6), JUST AS the woman who is married is bound to her husband until one of them DIES.

No no no. I already addressed this way back when we discussed it before, and you never responded. Gal 5 says the same thing! Gal 5 proves this applies to both born again people AND unregenerate people. The difference is that born again people DO NOT HAVE TO see this continue, like unregenerate people do.

Galatians 5:16 This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

We all agree not all born again people walk after the Spirit all the time. WHEN THEY DO, they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. But when they slip away from walking in the Spirit, THEY WILL SIN. The force will overpower them.

And this is exactly what Paul described in Romans 7. The reason Romans 6 is written is so that the dilemma of Romans 7 can STOP. But it will not STOP so long as people never learn WHY they do not have to be pushed around by this force of sin. And unless a believer learns what Romans 6 says, THEY WILL fail.

Romans 7 is NOT restricted to unregeneate people alone. Otherwise you can never say you wanted to do good as a believer and yet failed. Have you ever wanted to do good but failed? I have! But when I learned the truth of Romans 6 and understood Paul's depths of teaching in that chapter, it happened less and less.

Summary of Romans 6: We have to first KNOW we do not have to sin, because of our deaths with Christ. Then we have to reckon, or apply that to us individually and very personally. then we have to PRESENT ourselves to God in faith that we are dead to sin and have the right to call on Him for empowerment to stop sinning. Know (Rom 6:3, 6, 9), Reckon (Rom 6:11) then YIELD (Rom 6:13).

It is walking after the Spirit when we RELY on the Spirit's power to overcome sin by yielding to God as someone who clearly knows they are qualified for God to empower them in this manner.HARDLY ANY believer really knows this since it's rarely ever taught. But it is walking after the flesh when we try to do our human best to obey God's law without faith for God to empower us and help us.

And if we do not yield to God in faithful prayer for empowerment, we will fail like Romans 7 describes it.

When Paul says "to will is with me" he does not mean he actually exercises his volition to obey God. Rather, he means he intellectually acknowledges the rightness of God's ways and in fact he may have desires to obey God and do his commandments. But he does not actually DO them. which means he does not WILL them.

No. He meant he wanted to obey God. Seriously, bro consider what I am saying. I may be onto something, as I honestly think I am.

I think you are using the word "will" in two different ways and not recognising the differences in meaning. To will something is to actually choose something, to choose a course of action. It is not merely to wish, or desire, something. A person can "wish" they were a Christian and yet never become one.

Paul had the WILL to do good. That's what the context says. He actually tried to fulfil it. He found he failed. "When I would do good, evil is present with me." And that brings condemnation. One would not be condemned if one did not honestly want to do good and failed. That is why he cried out in misery for deliverance. Without the will to do good one would not feel condemned nor cry out. And I argue that is the condemnation for Rm 8:1.

Watch carefully:

Romans 7:25-8:1 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin. (8:1) There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.


Paul sums up the dilemma by saying that his mind served God's law. That is an explanation of what he meant as follows:

Romans 7:15-22 For that which I do I allow not (ALLOWING NOT, MEANS HE DID NOT WANT TO DO EVIL - HE ALLOWED IT NOT IN HIS INTENTIONS): for what I would (THE GOOD HE WANTS TO DO IN REAL LIFE), that do I not (=HE FAILS TO DO); but what I hate (HE ONLY HATES DOING EVIL IF HE WILLS TO NOT DO THE EVIL), that do I (HE DOES WHAT HE HATES TO DO. HE WOULD NOT HATE DOING IT IF HE DID NOT HAVE THE WILL TO NOT DO IT). (16) If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good (ONE ONLY AGREES WITH LAW IF ONE WANTS TO OBEY THAT LAW, SHOWING PAUL SINCERELY WANTED TO DO RIGHT AND FAILED). (17) Now then it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me (KNOWING HE WANTED TO DO GOOD BUT COULD NEVER SUCCEED SHOWS HE -- HIS REASON AND CHOICE -- IS NOT THE PROBLEM. SIN POSES ANOTHER PROBLEM ASIDE FROM CHOICE AND DESIRE). (18) For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me (WHAT HE SAID ABOUT HATING WHAT HE ACTUALLY DID AND CHOOSING NOT TO DO IT BUT DOING IT ANYWAY, PROVES THIS TERM "WILL" IS SPEAKING OF AGREEMENT AND ACTUAL DESIRE TO DO WHAT IS RIGHT); but how to perform that which is good I find not. (19) For the good that I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I do. (20) Now if I do that I would not, it is no more I that do it, but sin that dwelleth in me. (21) I find then a law, that, when I would do good, evil is present with me. (22) For I delight in the law of God after the inward man:

Take a drunk. He knows drinking is wrong. He knows it's bad. He "wants to quit", he wishes he was a sober man. He can honestly say "to will is present with me", but suppose he never puts forth any actual volition to get off the drink? Suppose he never actually DECIDES to STOP DRINKING.

This is where I think you miss it. Paul actually DECIDED to not sin. He would not say HE HATED sinning if he did not actually decide to not do it, but failed instead.

Suppose he never actually CHOOSES to say no to alcohol. Instead, he repeatedly CHOOSES to get drunk.

An addiction can be so strong you cannot stop doing something you are addicted to doing. Your flesh is physically in need of that now, so it's interesting you use alcoholism as an example.

He has not actually "willed" to quit, in the sense of actually choosing to be sober. And suppose the temptations are so great that he melts in defeat and surrender at the slightest thought of alcohol? He FAILS TO GO TO GOD FOR HELP.

If you adjusted this picture and said tying our human best in all choice and decision to actually do it will fail, unless we go to God for miraculous intervention, you'd have it right I believe.

He fails to pray. He fails to seek mercy from God, he fails to allow Christ to sanctify him by faith. Why? Because he REALLY chooses the drink, not sobriety. He wishes, he daydreams, his reason tells him the right thing to do... but he desires to get drunk at all costs, even the cost of his soul.

Is such a man a slave? Absolutely! and he will earn his slave wages, which is death. Why? Because he has NOT DIED TO HIS SIN. What does it mean to "die to sin"? What does it mean to "crucify the flesh"? What does it mean that the "old man is dead"? It means the WILL or CHOICE to practice sin is no more, replaced with the will or choice to obey God. As Paul said, "AS you have yielded yourselves to sin... so now yield yourselves unto God" (ch 6). And according to chapter 8, Christ's death on the cross is what will produce in the hearts and lives of those who receive Him by faith the actual performance of the will of God, through the Spirit.

"To will is present with me" does not mean he actually WILLS to obey God in the sense of actually CHOOSING, actually putting forth the volitions of obeying God.

Sorry, the words Paul used saying HE HATED doing the things he did prove to me otherwise. One cannot say they HATE doing something they do, if they truly did not choose to NOT do it, and that was the only problem that existed.

Rather it means that he knows the right thing to do, and may even want to do the right thing. But he also desires to sin, and sin is his master, so he must obey sin rather than God. Why? Because he has yielded himself to obey sin (ch 6).

We yield to sin without choice to do so, because choice cannot be made unless we realize we have a choice! It's like healing amongst those who think healing days are over. They do not know GOD still heals. So they don't think they have a choice to believe God for it. Likewise, people do not think they have a choice to STOP SINNING. Partly this is so, because they misread Romans y7 and think Paul was talking about believers never being able to overcome sin.

Chapter 6 contains the clear and unambiguous doctrine of Paul on the nature of sin and righteousness as it manifests in a person's life. Chapter 7 cannot be isolated from what is said in chapter 6.

Of course it cannot be isolated. But the fact is that unless believers expressly KNOW and clearly UNDERSTAND the teaching of Romans 6, they will inadvertently fail and be slaves to sin without realizing they do not have to be.

The popular "sin did it, not me" interpretation is the result of taking ch 7 out of context. It also leads to that favorite hiding place of sinners - "I can't help it. It's not MY fault! And therefore I AM NOT TO BLAME."

You did not get what I meant. Paul said "SIN , NOT ME". And it is not the context you are speaking against, either.

[mfblume]

All the stories of the Old Testament relate truths of the new testament to us in object lesson form.

Esther solved the problem of Haman's plans to destroy the jews... so she thought.

Initially Haman was hanged on the gallows made for Mordecai. That alludes to the cross where satan's desire to destroy Christ actually brought his own destruction.

But after Haman was gone, the law the man set forth to destroy Jews on Adar the 13th was still in effect. Haman was hanged but his law still existed.

This is precisely the dilemma of believers. The devil's power is subjugated b the cross. But the law of sin and death still hangs out there over too many believers' heads. Esther's answer was provided by the king. The law cannot be undone. But it can be overcome by a higher law. Use the king';s name for a HIGHER LAW and render the law of Haman ineffective. But if you do not use this higher law and the King's name, suffer the consequences.

This is like the law of sin and death. It will mess believers up unless they live by the HIGHER LAW of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. So long as one trusts in God in faith and relies on His spirit to empower us, the law of sin and death cannot prevail. But stop living like that, and succumb to the law of sin and death.

This is how Romans 7 can affect a Christian.