Why Sunday

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Lol! All I am doing is trying to give a reasoned defense of what I believe is the sound doctrine of the apostolic faith and practice.

Not in mockery? Sounds like a wee bit of mockery in there, to be honest.

It also sounds like you are judging people for obeying the 4th commandment? Doesn't your own position prohibit that?

I am not judging. How can I be judging when I say what Paul said? God already judged the issue. I just added thoughts that sabbath keepers have to realize if they are to engage in it as you propose we should. Paul said it's weakness of faith, not me.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I am not judging. How can I be judging when I say what Paul said? God already judged the issue. I just added thoughts that sabbath keepers have to realize if they are to engage in it as you propose we should. Paul said it's weakness of faith, not me.

Your comment about you and your house keeping the body and not the shadow comes across as you viewing sabbath keepers as less spiritual than yourself. I am not offended, believe me. I don't get upset if someone tells me I am out of the will of God, I just ask for proof and evidence, because I want to be in the will of God.

Sabbath keeping involves doing and not doing certain things that non Sabbath keepers aren't accustomed to. Like not doing chores on that day. It always amuses me when people think Sabbath keeping involves doing a bunch of extra hard work ("bondage!!") or something. It's the opposite, in fact. It's a day of REST, not extra hard slave labour lol.

Preparing for the Sabbath is part of it. It isn't hard to make food in advance (don't people often do that anyway?) nor is it hard to not mow the lawn or go shopping. Well, maybe for some that would be hard.

When we first began obeying the 4th commandment way way back when, it was strange and difficult at first. Because it was so different from what we were used to and how we were raised. But learning, studying God's word, praying, allowing the Holy Ghost to lead and guide, results in a progression and change of a person's whole life and lifestyle. Looking back I see just how chaotic and disorganised my life was before I allowed God to manage my time.

I am certainly not saying Sabbath keeping cures all ills. Anymore than any other Bible commandment. But like with all things God says to do, there are benefits to just trusting and obeying God.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Esaias

Your comment about you and your house keeping the body and not the shadow comes across as you viewing sabbath keepers as less spiritual than yourself. I am not offended, believe me. I don't get upset if someone tells me I am out of the will of God, I just ask for proof and evidence, because I want to be in the will of God.

Fair enough. But being strong or weak in faith is a reality, and I do believe ther eis weakness of faith in sabbath keeper on that issue when compared to those who claim otherwise. You obviously believe you are more advanced in this issue than I am, or you would not disagree with my stance, on thie issue. But I do claim that's what Paul spoke about by describing those weak in faith, for that is the context, and it's nothing personal. Neither is it anything to brag about, for Paul stated that the more he learned about what was true, the more he realized that he knew nothing. For God to speak to someone about an issue is nothing to boast about. While the legalist is warned to not judge, the enlightened are warned to not despise.

Sabbath keeping involves doing and not doing certain things that non Sabbath keepers aren't accustomed to. Like not doing chores on that day. It always amuses me when people think Sabbath keeping involves doing a bunch of extra hard work ("bondage!!") or something. It's the opposite, in fact. It's a day of REST, not extra hard slave labour lol.

It's not doing, and Paul addressed that in Colossians 2 as part of the touch not, taste not handle not ordinances of the elements of the world, which I know you claim are not what Paul meant by elements of the world.

Preparing for the Sabbath is part of it. It isn't hard to make food in advance (don't people often do that anyway?) nor is it hard to not mow the lawn or go shopping. Well, maybe for some that would be hard.

As I said, someone I know honestly and sincerely set out to do that with twice of much work on a Friday as any other day, so that Saturday's food was all prepared. And it is more work on the sixth. It just is. You work twice as much on the sixth day to do none of the seventh, so far as food is concerned, and other things that must be done before the
seventh day arrives when it cannot be done. Chores. etc. This person told me it was really wracking. They were not engaging in it to argue a point, but to honestly try it. And to think that all of that change and effort is necessary to keep the sabbath, shows quite an effort to change, let alone work twice as much on the sixth day.

When we first began obeying the 4th commandment way way back when, it was strange and difficult at first. Because it was so different from what we were used to and how we were raised. But learning, studying God's word, praying, allowing the Holy Ghost to lead and guide, results in a progression and change of a person's whole life and lifestyle. Looking back I see just how chaotic and disorganised my life was before I allowed God to manage my time.

I am certainly not saying Sabbath keeping cures all ills. Anymore than any other Bible commandment. But like with all things God says to do, there are benefits to just trusting and obeying God.

..if you are right in saying sabbath day is not fulfilled with a spiritual rest instead of the shadow.

But go for it! If that's what you see in the word, do so. I disagree with you on this in very strong terms. But we are not serving each other. We serve God. Blessings!

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Fair enough. But being strong or weak in faith is a reality, and I do believe ther eis weakness of faith in sabbath keeper on that issue when compared to those who claim otherwise. You obviously believe you are more advanced in this issue than I am, or you would not disagree with my stance, on thie issue. But I do claim that's what Paul spoke about by describing those weak in faith, for that is the context, and it's nothing personal. Neither is it anything to brag about, for Paul stated that the more he learned about what was true, the more he realized that he knew nothing. For God to speak to someone about an issue is nothing to boast about. While the legalist is warned to not judge, the enlightened are warned to not despise.



It's not doing, and Paul addressed that in Colossians 2 as part of the touch not, taste not handle not ordinances of the elements of the world, which I know you claim are not what Paul meant by elements of the world.



As I said, someone I know honestly and sincerely set out to do that with twice of much work on a Friday as any other day, so that Saturday's food was all prepared. And it is more work on the sixth. It just is. You work twice as much on the sixth day to do none of the seventh, so far as food is concerned, and other things that must be done before the
seventh day arrives when it cannot be done. Chores. etc. This person told me it was really wracking. They were not engaging in it to argue a point, but to honestly try it. And to think that all of that change and effort is necessary to keep the sabbath, shows quite an effort to change, let alone work twice as much on the sixth day.



..if you are right in saying sabbath day is not fulfilled with a spiritual rest instead of the shadow.

But go for it! If that's what you see in the word, do so. I disagree with you on this in very strong terms. But we are not serving each other. We serve God. Blessings!

Brother Blume,

If I understand the debate, you believe that all of the Ten Commandments but the one concerning the sabbath, are still in effect.

Esaias believes that ALL ten of the commandments including observing the sabbath are still in effect.

I believe you are both wrong. You are wrong about nine commandments, and Esaias is wrong about ten. Because I believe that the OLD covenant WAS the Ten Commandments.

I have already posted scripture that shows that the covenant was referred to as the Ten Commandments. But there are two. Then there is the fact that God ordered Moses to have an ark built to house the tables of stone.

Deut.10

[1] At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood.
[2] And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

God told Moses to build an ark.

What is an ark?

Let me quote Merriam Webster:

\ ˈärk \
Definition of ark (Entry 1 of 2)
1a : a boat or ship held to resemble that in which Noah and his family were preserved from the Flood
b : something that affords protection and safety

If you go with definition b, which I believe applies here, you actually have God telling Moses to build a structure that will provide protection and safety for the two “tables of stone” that the Ten Commandments were written on.

So it shouldn’t be any surprise that the structure built to protect the ”covenant” aka the Ten Commandments would come to be known as the Ark of the Covenant. It is this covenant that is referred to as the OLD covenant in Hebrews. The old covenant is the Ten Commandments.

Therefore the commandment to observe the sabbath is long gone. And so are the others. Now it is interesting that the other commandments are reiterated in the NT, but the admonition to observe the sabbath is not.

So Esaias and I agree on one thing. If the sabbath commandment is gone, or vanished, so are the others. Which brings up another key point in . . .

Hebrews 8

[13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

If the old covenant was ready to vanish away, some two thousand years ago, what are the chances that it is still hanging around today? Because if it was ready to vanish, that would mean all of the necessary conditions were met for it to vanish. So if this old covenant, that has vanished away, doesn’t refer to the covenant known as the Ten Commandments, or the Ten Commandments known as the covenant, then pray tell what covenant is this verse referring to?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother Blume,

If I understand the debate, you believe that all of the Ten Commandments but the one concerning the sabbath, are still in effect.

Esaias believes that ALL ten of the commandments including observing the sabbath are still in effect.

I believe you are both wrong. You are wrong about nine commandments, and Esaias is wrong about ten. Because I believe that the OLD covenant WAS the Ten Commandments.

I have already posted scripture that shows that the covenant was referred to as the Ten Commandments. But there are two. Then there is the fact that God ordered Moses to have an ark built to house the tables of stone.

Deut.10

[1] At that time the LORD said unto me, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first, and come up unto me into the mount, and make thee an ark of wood.
[2] And I will write on the tables the words that were in the first tables which thou brakest, and thou shalt put them in the ark.

God told Moses to build an ark.

What is an ark?

Let me quote Merriam Webster:

\ ˈärk \
Definition of ark (Entry 1 of 2)
1a : a boat or ship held to resemble that in which Noah and his family were preserved from the Flood
b : something that affords protection and safety

If you go with definition b, which I believe applies here, you actually have God telling Moses to build a structure that will provide protection and safety for the two “tables of stone” that the Ten Commandments were written on.

So it shouldn’t be any surprise that the structure built to protect the ”covenant” aka the Ten Commandments would come to be known as the Ark of the Covenant. It is this covenant that is referred to as the OLD covenant in Hebrews. The old covenant is the Ten Commandments.

Therefore the commandment to observe the sabbath is long gone. And so are the others. Now it is interesting that the other commandments are reiterated in the NT, but the admonition to observe the sabbath is not.

So Esaias and I agree on one thing. If the sabbath commandment is gone, or vanished, so are the others. Which brings up another key point in . . .

Hebrews 8

[13] In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

If the old covenant was ready to vanish away, some two thousand years ago, what are the chances that it is still hanging around today? Because if it was ready to vanish, that would mean all of the necessary conditions were met for it to vanish.

The old covenant is gone. NOt sure why you claim that I think it is not.

The old covenant was represented by the first tabernacle and you could not get into the second tabernacle if the first was still standing. So, the first tabernacle was removed as much as you can only get into the new covenant if the first is removed.

But if you think that the ten commandments are the old covenant, and claim that my belief that the nine are still in effect then I do not think the old passed away, you have to first prove that I believe the old covenant remains. I never said anything about the old covenant still being in effect, but directly the opposite. And when I said the nine are still in effect, I did not mean anything in the way that you claim I meant. I simply said murder is wrong as much as adultery, etc.

So if this old covenant, that has vanished away, doesn’t refer to the covenant known as the Ten Commandments, or the Ten Commandments known as the covenant, then pray tell what covenant is this verse referring to?

I never actually stated nine are in effect, as such. But I am not sure what you are proposing. What do you mean the Old Covenant in the form of the Ten Commandments passed away?

You agree that nine of the ten were reiterated by Jesus because they were not shadows. That's all that I meant by the fourth is changed into the spiritual rest. Esaias always said that I think one is abolished, but I never said that. I said the fourth is in effect spiritually since it was a foreshadow because they remain in what Jesus and the apostles presented.

The Old Covenant though is far more than the ten commandments. The Old Covenant is a body of covenant that was represented by Hagar and issued at Mount Sinai. It's everything that went forth from Mount Sinai, not just the ten commandments. It involved tabernacle/temple worship. Yes, you could say it is the ten commandments, because everything God gave additional to that was actually applications of the ten

It's more complex than saying that the ark was the ark of the covenant, therefore the ten commandments put inside the ark are the covenant, itself. It's true in one sense. The truth is that everything in the Law of 613 precepts are based on the Ten Commandments. The Ten commandments are the simple form and the rest of the law was all stemmed from them. So, everything Moses was given at Sinai stands for the ten. So, it's the same thing really.

Jesus broke it down further and said Love God and Love your neighbour as yourself. That is basically what the ten commandments are, and in turn, is basically what everything else in Leviticus and Deuteronomy and Exodus are.

[mfblume]

I agree that Law is synonymous with ten commandments, and sabbatarians are wrong in saying it is not.

The letter is the ten commandments.

2 Corinthians 3:6-7.. Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life. ..(7).. But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

2 Corinthians 3:11.. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

2 Corinthians 3:15.. But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.


When Moses is read, the ten commandments are read.

[mfblume]

Sabbath-keeping is not moral, other than the reasoning that we morally must do whatever God says to do even if the thing he says to do is not moral in itself..

God would not grow weary in any way if someone was faithful to refraining from adultery or refraining from murder. Would God ever say that our forbiddance from murder and theft and adultery were troublesome to him like he said sabbath-keeping of Israel was troubling to him?

Isaiah 1:13-14.. Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; it is iniquity, even the solemn meeting. ..(14).. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear them.

How can sabbath keeping be a trouble to God if sabbath keeping in and of itself is moral? Could you see God speaking of their refusal to murder and commit adultery in those verses instead of feast keeping and sabbath keeping? Of course not.

Israel trusted in these things when their hearts were not right. Can that be said about refraining from adultery? No, because refusing to commit adultery is in and of itself moral and can never be part of anything that makes its value into something of no value.

You can hypocritically keep sabbath but you cannot hypocritically refrain from adultery or murder, etc.

[Esaias]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree that Law is synonymous with ten commandments, and sabbatarians are wrong in saying it is not.

You are wrong in saying that Sabbath keepers say the law and ten commandments are different things.

I have pointed out repeatedly for YEARS that the word "law" has multiple meanings. I will now prove it:

Matthew 22:35-40 KJV
Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question , tempting him, and saying, [36] Master, which is the great commandment in the law? [37] Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. [38] This is the first and great commandment. [39] And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. [40] On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.

The two commandments Jesus said are the greatest commandments in the law are not in the ten commandments. One is in Deuteronomy in the Shema, the other is in Leviticus. Jesus then said on these two hang all the law and the prophets. Law there means the Pentateuch (Genesis - Deuteronomy).

John 10:34-35 KJV
Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods? [35] If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

Here law refers to the Psalms.

Romans 3:10-19 KJV
As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: [11] There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God. [12] They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one. [13] Their throat is an open sepulchre; with their tongues they have used deceit; the poison of asps is under their lips: [14] Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness: [15] Their feet are swift to shed blood: [16] Destruction and misery are in their ways: [17] And the way of peace have they not known: [18] There is no fear of God before their eyes. [19] Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

Here the prophet Isaiah's writings are called the law.

Romans 7:1-3 KJV
Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth? [2] For the woman which hath an husband is bound by the law to her husband so long as he liveth; but if the husband be dead, she is loosed from the law of her husband. [3] So then if, while her husband liveth, she be married to another man, she shall be called an adulteress: but if her husband be dead, she is free from that law; so that she is no adulteress, though she be married to another man.

Here law refers in the first case to the "Mosaic law", that is, the commandments contained in the Pentateuch, and in the latter case to the specific requirements regulating marriage and remarriage. Her being a widow and dead to the law which bound her to theprevious husband does not mean she is free from the ten commandments or any other law.

Romans 7:7 KJV
What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.

Here the law mentioned specifically includes the tenth commandment.

1 Corinthians 14:21 KJV
In the law it is written, With men of other tongues and other lips will I speak unto this people; and yet for all that will they not hear me, saith the Lord.

Here law means the prophet Isaiah.

2 Kings 17:13 KJV
Yet the Lord testified against Israel, and against Judah, by all the prophets, and by all the seers, saying, Turn ye from your evil ways, and keep my commandments and my statutes, according to all the law which I commanded your fathers, and which I sent to you by my servants the prophets.

Here the law is the commandments and statutes which were given through Moses AS WELL AS the later instructions and warnings and admonitions given by the prophets.

I could go on by I think this should it make it clear that the word "law" does not mean the same thing in all cases. I don't know anyone who says the ten commandments are not the law, or vice versa, in any generalised sense. The meaning of the word law is determined by its usage and context.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The old covenant is gone. NOt sure why you claim that I think it is not.

The old covenant was represented by the first tabernacle and you could not get into the second tabernacle if the first was still standing. So, the first tabernacle was removed as much as you can only get into the new covenant if the first is removed.

But if you think that the ten commandments are the old covenant, and claim that my belief that the nine are still in effect then I do not think the old passed away, you have to first prove that I believe the old covenant remains. I never said anything about the old covenant still being in effect, but directly the opposite. And when I said the nine are still in effect, I did not mean anything in the way that you claim I meant. I simply said murder is wrong as much as adultery, etc.



I never actually stated nine are in effect, as such. But I am not sure what you are proposing. What do you mean the Old Covenant in the form of the Ten Commandments passed away?

You agree that nine of the ten were reiterated by Jesus because they were not shadows. That's all that I meant by the fourth is changed into the spiritual rest. Esaias always said that I think one is abolished, but I never said that. I said the fourth is in effect spiritually since it was a foreshadow because they remain in what Jesus and the apostles presented.

The Old Covenant though is far more than the ten commandments. The Old Covenant is a body of covenant that was represented by Hagar and issued at Mount Sinai. It's everything that went forth from Mount Sinai, not just the ten commandments. It involved tabernacle/temple worship. Yes, you could say it is the ten commandments, because everything God gave additional to that was actually applications of the ten

It's more complex than saying that the ark was the ark of the covenant, therefore the ten commandments put inside the ark are the covenant, itself. It's true in one sense. The truth is that everything in the Law of 613 precepts are based on the Ten Commandments. The Ten commandments are the simple form and the rest of the law was all stemmed from them. So, everything Moses was given at Sinai stands for the ten. So, it's the same thing really.

Jesus broke it down further and said Love God and Love your neighbour as yourself. That is basically what the ten commandments are, and in turn, is basically what everything else in Leviticus and Deuteronomy and Exodus are.

Brother Blume,

I apologize for misrepresenting your belief about this. The back and forth sometimes gets complicated. It’s kind of like watching a game of ping pong.

I believe we are in agreement about this. Most people would disagree. It does merit thorough study though.

[Evang.Benincasa]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Brother Blume,

I apologize for misrepresenting your belief about this. The back and forth sometimes gets complicated. It’s kind of like watching a game of ping pong.

I believe we are in agreement about this. Most people would disagree. It does merit thorough study though.