Tony Spell has church in spite of the ban

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Okay. What specifically is the difference in what you have said, and what I said? It appears to me that you have said the same thing.

While you are researching, tell us when the 501c3 designation was begun, and what happened before such designation was available to churches.

No. Churches are not automatically considered 501c3. Many people believe they are, but they are not. They are automatically tax exempt. Which is the case whether they are 501c3, or not.

You are making a distinction that doesn't exist. Churches are exempt from taxation under current law based on Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code. If the church isn't exempt under these rules, they aren't exempt at all. In fact, if you have a church that isn't a 501(c)(3), you probably don't legally have a church. What you are actually referring to is the official recognition of that status, which is a whole process unto itself.

They apply to whom, for that designation?

They apply to the Secretary of State of the state they are geographically located in, Louisiana for Brother Spell. They are applying for the right to abandon their status as a separate entity from the state. They are begging (begging is maybe a bit strong verbiage here, but I’m making a point) for recognition of the fact that they are voluntarily giving up their status of separation from the state. I have NEVER heard of any church being turned down. The church of Scientology was initially, but they appealed and were granted status.

Again, this is incorrect. Official recognition of 501(c)(3) status is in the hands of the Internal Revenue Service. In this instance, you are referencing incorporation under state law. This does not make you part of the state, nor does it waive first amendment rights. It is simply the process to create a separate legal entity, as opposed to operating as an unincorporated association. In Illinois, there is no begging. If you send the money, you are created. I would be surprised if that isn't the case in all states, but I could certainly be wrong on that part.

So what happens when they are granted this status? They give up the status of separation, and agree to incorporate, under the laws of the State of Louisiana, in the case of Brother Spell. A corporation is a legal entity. Incorporated UNDER the laws of the state is a legal matter. The church that is incorporated under the laws of the state, are legally bound to obey the laws of that state that apply to such corporations.

That’s the condensed version, as I understand it. Some people are going to dispute this, no doubt, but I have studied it somewhat and I’m pretty sure this is accurate.

Being incorporated does make you a legally separate entity and subject to rights and obligations under state law, and also provides legal protections. However, none of that has any bearing on being tax exempt or a 501(c)(3). That question is a completely separate one.

While you are researching, tell us when the 501c3 designation was begun, and what happened before such designation was available to churches.

If I had to guess, I would say it began in the 1950s when the modern tax system was implemented, though I do not know for certain. Also, I do not know what was done prior, but I do know that it is irrelevant given we have a codified system to deal with in the present. Before 501(c)(3) existed, it could absolutely be said that a church could be tax exempt, but not a 501(c)(3). (Duh, right? Ha!) But as things stand today, a church being tax exempt and a church being a 501(c)(3) entity are one and the same for no other reason than it is the code section defining the exemption.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Ehud

No. Churches are not automatically considered 501c3. Many people believe they are, but they are not. They are automatically tax exempt. Which is the case whether they are 501c3, or not.

You are making a distinction that doesn't exist. Churches are exempt from taxation under current law based on Section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code. If the church isn't exempt under these rules, they aren't exempt at all. In fact, if you have a church that isn't a 501(c)(3), you probably don't legally have a church. What you are actually referring to is the official recognition of that status, which is a whole process unto itself.

They apply to whom, for that designation?

They apply to the Secretary of State of the state they are geographically located in, Louisiana for Brother Spell. They are applying for the right to abandon their status as a separate entity from the state. They are begging (begging is maybe a bit strong verbiage here, but I’m making a point) for recognition of the fact that they are voluntarily giving up their status of separation from the state. I have NEVER heard of any church being turned down. The church of Scientology was initially, but they appealed and were granted status.

Again, this is incorrect. Official recognition of 501(c)(3) status is in the hands of the Internal Revenue Service. In this instance, you are referencing incorporation under state law. This does not make you part of the state, nor does it waive first amendment rights. It is simply the process to create a separate legal entity, as opposed to operating as an unincorporated association. In Illinois, there is no begging. If you send the money, you are created. I would be surprised if that isn't the case in all states, but I could certainly be wrong on that part.

So what happens when they are granted this status? They give up the status of separation, and agree to incorporate, under the laws of the State of Louisiana, in the case of Brother Spell. A corporation is a legal entity. Incorporated UNDER the laws of the state is a legal matter. The church that is incorporated under the laws of the state, are legally bound to obey the laws of that state that apply to such corporations.

That’s the condensed version, as I understand it. Some people are going to dispute this, no doubt, but I have studied it somewhat and I’m pretty sure this is accurate.

Being incorporated does make you a legally separate entity and subject to rights and obligations under state law, and also provides legal protections. However, none of that has any bearing on being tax exempt or a 501(c)(3). That question is a completely separate one.

While you are researching, tell us when the 501c3 designation was begun, and what happened before such designation was available to churches.

If I had to guess, I would say it began in the 1950s when the modern tax system was implemented, though I do not know for certain. Also, I do not know what was done prior, but I do know that it is irrelevant given we have a codified system to deal with in the present. Before 501(c)(3) existed, it could absolutely be said that a church could be tax exempt, but not a 501(c)(3). (Duh, right? Ha!) But as things stand today, a church being tax exempt and a church being a 501(c)(3) entity are one and the same for no other reason than it is the code section defining the exemption.

I’ll reply to this later. Meanwhile you seem to be looking at everything from a viewpoint of an accountant. Part of it is legal. Don’t assume I’m over my head. You may be shorter than you think you are.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

I’ll reply to this later. Meanwhile you seem to be looking at everything from a viewpoint of an accountant. Part of it is legal. Don’t assume I’m over my head. You may be shorter than you think you are.

Brother, you must be reading more into what I am saying than I am truly saying because I am speaking *only* as an accountant. You are conflating issues, and all I have done is enumerate government regulations.

• Churches need not be incorporated to be a 501(c)(3).
• Churches that meet the requirements are automatically tax exempt under 501(c)(3) and need not apply for recognition of this status.
• If a church doesn't qualify for tax exemption under Section 501(c)(3), it likely isn't a church for federal tax purposes.

From Publication 1828:

"Churches and religious organizations may be legally organized in a variety of ways under state law, such as unincorporated associations, nonprofit corporations, corporations sole and charitable trusts."

"Churches that meet the requirements of IRC Section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS. Although there is no requirement to do so, many churches seek recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS because this recognition assures church leaders, members and contributors that the church is recognized as exempt and qualifies for related tax benefits. For example, contributors to a church that has been recognized as tax exempt would know that their contributions generally are tax-deductible."

"Church. Certain characteristics are generally attributed to churches. These attributes of a church have been developed by the IRS and by court decisions. They include: distinct legal existence; recognized creed and form of worship; definite and distinct ecclesiastical government; formal code of doctrine and discipline; distinct religious history; membership not associated with any other church or denomination; organization of ordained ministers; ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed courses of study; literature of its own; established places of worship; regular congregations; regular religious services; Sunday schools for the religious instruction of the young; and schools for the preparation of its ministers. The IRS generally uses a combination of these characteristics, together with other facts and circumstances, to determine whether an organization is considered a church for federal tax purposes."

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

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p.s. If my "in over your head" comment offended you in any way, I do apologize. There was no reason to begin my statements with that jab.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Ehud

Brother, you must be reading more into what I am saying than I am truly saying because I am speaking *only* as an accountant. You are conflating issues, and all I have done is enumerate government regulations.

• Churches need not be incorporated to be a 501(c)(3).
• Churches that meet the requirements are automatically tax exempt under 501(c)(3) and need not apply for recognition of this status.
• If a church doesn't qualify for tax exemption under Section 501(c)(3), it likely isn't a church for federal tax purposes.

From Publication 1828:

"Churches and religious organizations may be legally organized in a variety of ways under state law, such as unincorporated associations, nonprofit corporations, corporations sole and charitable trusts."

"Churches that meet the requirements of IRC Section 501(c)(3) are automatically considered tax exempt and are not required to apply for and obtain recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS. Although there is no requirement to do so, many churches seek recognition of tax-exempt status from the IRS because this recognition assures church leaders, members and contributors that the church is recognized as exempt and qualifies for related tax benefits. For example, contributors to a church that has been recognized as tax exempt would know that their contributions generally are tax-deductible."

"Church. Certain characteristics are generally attributed to churches. These attributes of a church have been developed by the IRS and by court decisions. They include: distinct legal existence; recognized creed and form of worship; definite and distinct ecclesiastical government; formal code of doctrine and discipline; distinct religious history; membership not associated with any other church or denomination; organization of ordained ministers; ordained ministers selected after completing prescribed courses of study; literature of its own; established places of worship; regular congregations; regular religious services; Sunday schools for the religious instruction of the young; and schools for the preparation of its ministers. The IRS generally uses a combination of these characteristics, together with other facts and circumstances, to determine whether an organization is considered a church for federal tax purposes."

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/p1828.pdf

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p.s. If my "in over your head" comment offended you in any way, I do apologize. There was no reason to begin my statements with that jab.

I’m offended. Just kidding. What is important, is that we get to the truth of the matter. Because inquiring minds want to know. So let’s slow it down and break it down. I’ll take it from the top. Next post.

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Ehud

• Churches need not be incorporated to be a 501(c)(3).
• Churches that meet the requirements are automatically tax exempt under 501(c)(3) and need not apply for recognition of this status.
• If a church doesn't qualify for tax exemption under Section 501(c)(3), it likely isn't a church for federal tax purposes.

The key element is "meet the requirements",

That might include having the proper number of perverts in the ministry.

Or closing up church for a year or three on a bogus pandemic.

And more.

Originally Posted by Esaias

Churches are automatically exempt from taxation and reporting by law. 501c3 status is conferred by the IRS when an organisation (non profit corporation for example) applies to the IRS and is approved.

IRS approval comes at a great cost, it is a compromise which places the government above the church.

Originally Posted by Ehud

If I had to guess, I would say it began in the 1950s when the modern tax system was implemented, though I do not know for certain. Also, I do not know what was done prior, but I do know that it is irrelevant given we have a codified system to deal with in the present. Before 501(c)(3) existed, it could absolutely be said that a church could be tax exempt, but not a 501(c)(3). (Duh, right? Ha!) But as things stand today, a church being tax exempt and a church being a 501(c)(3) entity are one and the same for no other reason than it is the code section defining the exemption.

You are wrongly implying that 501(c)(3) is a sine qua non for tax exemption.

Originally Posted by 1ness

Here's a senario, food for thought. I not saying I have any evidence for this ok but here me out:

The Gov't will roll out mandatory vacinations. The media is already programing the Sheep saying people will only be comfortable going to baseball games and large crowds if there is a vaccine and possibly mandatory vaccinations. The Gov't will implant a chip in people with the vaccine (think RFID) so you can quickly swipe your hand and the doors will open to let you into the Walmart or a Costco. What will you do then. There will be people in this forum, possibly the same ones that agree that we should tank the economy and not congregate, that will be FOR taking that vaccine and chip because, "We must obey the laws of the land for the Lord's sake.." "You people are being irresponsible, you're putting lives at risk..."

Lots of evidence that this is the Gates-Pharma-$$-Greed plan. And they look for the best politicians that $$ can buy.

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Steven Avery

...

You are wrongly implying that 501(c)(3) is a sine qua non for tax exemption.

...

Can you provide the source of exemption if not 501(c)(3). If I am wrong, and there is another source, I am more than willing to admit my error. I'm just repeating what the IRS has said.

"IRC Section 501(c)(3).IRC section 501(c)(3) describes charitable organizations, including churches and religious organizations, which qualify for exemption from federal income tax..."

[Steven Avery]

Originally Posted by Ehud

Can you provide the source of exemption if not 501(c)(3). If I am wrong, and there is another source, I am more than willing to admit my error. I'm just repeating what the IRS has said. [/INDENT]

IRS writing is generally trying to give an impression that is in their favor, and making you think you should go through their hoops.

Can we be a church and not a 501(c)(3)?
https://www.nonprofitissues.com/to-t...-and-not-501c3

If you meet the IRS definition of a “church” — generally an organization organized and operated for religious worship — you are automatically considered a tax-exempt charity described in section 501(c)(3). You don’t have to file an application to be recognized and don’t have to file annual tax information returns to retain the status.

Many folks go into this.

You simply ARE a church.
The IRS can claim otherwise, as they also do with many who have received 501(c)(3) status.

However, if you actually function as a church, you do not need the status. Your folks can similarly claim their donations as non-deductible. They should simply keep good records, or you can do it for them. However, I like this quote:

"Enticing to give via tax write-offs is not Biblical giving."
https://www.creationliberty.com/articles/501c3.php

501c3 Facts
http://hushmoney.org/501c3-facts.htm

One need not look far to see the devastating effects 501c3 acceptance has had to the church, and the consequent restrictions placed upon any 501c3 church. 501c3 churches are prohibited from addressing, in any tangible way, the vital issues of the day.

For a 501c3 church to openly speak out, or organize in opposition to, anything that the government declares "legal," even if it is immoral (e.g. abortion, homosexuality, etc.), that church will jeopardize its tax exempt status. The 501c3 has had a "chilling effect" upon the free speech rights of the church. LBJ was a shrewd and cunning politician who seemed to well-appreciate how easily many of the clergy would sell out.

Lets say you set up an arm of your church to help fight abortion and perversion. Or say that Tony would make a good governor, he is a moral and upright person, with sound economic principles (End the Fed!). Or he wants to vote out the martial law pandemic tyranny crew.

The government can say that you are not really a church. And start going after income. However, my sense is they are far more likely to do that if you are 501(c)(3), since you have put it in writing that you will be docile little nice church people, who really desire IRS approval.

501c3: The Devil's Church
Christopher E. J. Johnson
https://www.creationliberty.com/articles/501c3.php

Have not read the whole page, what I have read makes sense.

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Ehud

No. Churches are not automatically considered 501c3. Many people believe they are, but they are not. They are automatically tax exempt. Which is the case whether they are 501c3, or not.

Okay brother? Two questions for you.

Is a 501c3 exempted from paying taxes?

Is a church that is not a 501c3 exempted from paying taxes?

Just for drill. Let’s say I want to start a church that is a 501c3 corporation. How would I go about doing so?


[

[Ehud]

Originally Posted by Tithesmeister

Okay brother? Two questions for you.

Is a 501c3 exempted from paying taxes?

Is a church that is not a 501c3 exempted from paying taxes?

Just for drill. Let’s say I want to start a church that is a 501c3 corporation. How would I go about doing so?


[

Yes, if an organization meets the requirements of section 501(c)(3), they are exempt from paying income taxes.

If a church is not exempt under section 501(c)(3), then they are not exempt from paying income taxes. There is no other code section granting exemption to churches that I am aware of. Perhaps they qualify as a different type of organization under one of the other classifications given in section 501(c)?

If you are in Illinois and truly are trying to operate as a church (loophole finding and boundary pushing is a whole different discussion, ha!), you complete your articles of incorporation, send them to the secretary of state along with a check, and you are done. Churches aren't required to apply for and obtain formal recognition of tax exempt status from the federal government.

I feel like what some posters in this thread are driving at is that the first amendment alone -- separation of church and state -- should be sufficient for churches to be tax exempt. I don't necessarily disagree with the 'should be' portion of that, but am pointing out that isn't how the system currently operates. Under today's system, income is generally taxable unless specifically exempted by law. The exemption for churches just happens to be under section 501(c)(3).

[Tithesmeister]

Originally Posted by Ehud

Yes, if an organization meets the requirements of section 501(c)(3), they are exempt from paying income taxes.

So, if an organization meets the requirements of 501c3 they are not required to pay taxes. They don’t have to be incorporated as a 501c3, but of course if they are, they don’t have to pay taxes. So, if churches are churches, as we know a church to be, they are not required to pay taxes. Whether they are a 501c3 or not. That is what I said from the beginning, was it not? Then you said I was wrong, I was “over my head”, then you said the same thing I did, as far as I can tell.

Originally Posted by Ehud

If a church is not exempt under section 501(c)(3), then they are not exempt from paying income taxes. There is no other code section granting exemption to churches that I am aware of. Perhaps they qualify as a different type of organization under one of the other classifications given in section 501(c)?

This is like the question, “which came first, the chicken, or the egg. Esaias posted that this 501c3 tax code was codified in 1954. That seems right to me, just going from memory. So, it seems that you are saying that there was no such thing as a “legal” church, until the IRS defined what a church is. So, back to the chicken and the egg. Did the IRS invent the church? Or did the IRS define the church that already existed? I’m saying that the IRS described a church that was already legal, and allowed exemptions that were already being taken , so in essence, NOTHING changed. MANY churches are not incorporated under 501c3 guidelines today. Regardless of what the IRS says, they are not and have not required them to pay taxes on contributions. They really acknowledged what was already happening. Unless you can show me that churches paid taxes BEFORE 1954, I will continue to believe this is the case.

Originally Posted by Ehud

If you are in Illinois and truly are trying to operate as a church (loophole finding and boundary pushing is a whole different discussion, ha!), you complete your articles of incorporation, send them to the secretary of state along with a check, and you are done. Churches aren't required to apply for and obtain formal recognition of tax exempt status from the federal government.

Once again, you seem to be saying what I said originally. I said the Church is incorporated under the laws of the state. Before they incorporate, there is separation. After they incorporate they are under the law of the state.

Maybe you should tell us what you understand separation of church and state to be. It’s beginning to seem to me you don’t believe there is such a thing.

Originally Posted by Ehud

I feel like what some posters in this thread are driving at is that the first amendment alone -- separation of church and state -- should be sufficient for churches to be tax exempt. I don't necessarily disagree with the 'should be' portion of that, but am pointing out that isn't how the system currently operates. Under today's system, income is generally taxable unless specifically exempted by law. The exemption for churches just happens to be under section 501(c)(3).

In my study of tithing, I studied colonial America tithing. In early colonial America, tithes were rendered to the state, which at the time was England. They were rendered in tobacco, at least at one point. The tithe went to the representative of the Crown, and was then distributed to the Church. Which was the Church of England. The ornery citizenry didn’t like tithing to the Church of England, because they didn’t believe the doctrine that it taught. Imagine, if you will, forcing Apostolics to tithe to the Roman Catholic Church. It is a good analogy.

So separation of church and state had much to do with tithing. It also addressed other issues, such as forced church attendance.

BUT, when the revolutionary war was fought, and won, the new country of the United States, put in their constitution that there would be separation of church and state. The state wouldn’t force anyone to tithe to a church nor to attend that church, that was established, and headed up by the king. Hence the new practice of passing the plate was born. Under English law, the government supported the church. They supported the church through agricultural tithes. After the separation of church and state under the NEW republic, it was no longer the business of the state to distribute to the church.

That’s the condensed version.