Saved WithOut The Holy Ghost ?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

the W & S crowd often forgets that filling/receiving/ the Holy Ghost is not simply an experience of speaking in tongues .... this is a manifestation ... but the Spirit of God has been moving througout time ... when it moved over the face of the waters ... dwelled within prophets and others in the OT and He dwells/makes residence in those that accept Him through faith in His Incarnate Word - Jesus Christ.

Rev. 3:

20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him

Romans 8;11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you

Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me" (John 15:4).

If you abide in My Word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" (John 8:31).

"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me and I in Him." John 6: 53-56

Why don't you address what TRFrance has written? The question is when does the Spirit indwell a believer? You have said at faith. Please prove it with the scriptures that agree with your assertion.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Why don't you address what TRFrance has written? The question is when does the Spirit indwell a believer? You have said at faith. Please prove it with the scriptures that agree with your assertion.

Revelation 3 does alone. ... in conjuction to the other verses listed .... faith goes hand-in-hand w/ repentance ... AFTER COMMANDING REPENTANCE he said if ANYONE HEARS MY VOICE [FAITH COMETH BY HEARING ... HEARING THE WORD] .... THEN I WILL COME IN [INDWELL] AND EAT WITH HIM AND HE WITH ME.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Revelation 3 does alone. ... in conjuction to the other verses listed .... faith goes hand-in-hand w/ repentance ... AFTER COMMANDING REPENTANCE he said if ANYONE HEARS MY VOICE [FAITH COMETH BY HEARING ... HEARING THE WORD] .... THEN I WILL COME IN [INDWELL] AND EAT WITH HIM AND HE WITH ME.

Dan, you're not rightly dividing the word of God. Who is Jesus speaking to when he says he is standing at the door and knocking? The church of Laodicea who are believers not unbelievers.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Dan, you're not rightly dividing the word of God. Who is Jesus speaking to when he says he is standing at the door and knocking? The church of Laodicea who are believers not unbelievers.

THANK YOU!!

Jesus was speaking to the saints in the Laodicean church opening their hearts to him

He was not speaking about salvation by any means. How can anyone look at that passage in proper context and say Jesus was talking about salvation of sinners?

This goes back to what I said before. These people pluck scriptures out of context to support a convenient but bogus doctrine.

This guy is so way off, its scary. And he actually acted like Rev 3:20 was a solid proof text for his position. Not even close.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Why don't you address what TRFrance has written? The question is when does the Spirit indwell a believer? You have said at faith. Please prove it with the scriptures that agree with your assertion.

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Revelation 3 does alone. ... in conjuction to the other verses listed .... faith goes hand-in-hand w/ repentance ... AFTER COMMANDING REPENTANCE he said if ANYONE HEARS MY VOICE [FAITH COMETH BY HEARING ... HEARING THE WORD] .... THEN I WILL COME IN [INDWELL] AND EAT WITH HIM AND HE WITH ME.

Wrong again, Dan!! If Revelation 3:20 is a key scripture in your argument, it just shows how weak your case is, sir.


Dan, what is your response to Mizpeh's post on that?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Dan, you're not rightly dividing the word of God. Who is Jesus speaking to when he says he is standing at the door and knocking? The church of Laodicea who are believers not unbelievers.

UM ... who is ANYONE?? that's what the verse says ... not anyone in the church of Laodicea .... anyone!!!!! Of course he was addressing the church but the anyone is anyone ... generic anyone. Like open invitation anyone.

This not speaking to believers .... cop out holds no water in the light that y'all use Epistles to support your doctrines too ...

That's one scripture ... would you like another one?

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

UM ... who is ANYONE?? that's what the verse says ... not anyone in the church of Laodicea .... anyone!!!!! Of course he was addressing the church but the anyone is anyone ... generic anyone. Like open invitation anyone.

This not speaking to believers .... cop out holds no water in the light that y'all use Epistles to support your doctrines too ...

That's one scripture ... would you like another one?

Dan, stop the madness please. Context here. Jesus was talking to the saints and his whole conversation was to the lukewarm Laodicean church. He didn't throw in a verse all of a sudden dealing with sinners, when his whole conversation is about the saints in the Laodicean church!!

Look at whole passage. ..

14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans[f] write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[g] I will vomit you out of My mouth. 1718 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”

Dan, who is he talking to, and what is he talking about? Is he not taking to a lukewarm church that needs to repent?

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION DOCTRINE.

The "anyone" he is speaking to is specifically dealing with anyone in the Laodicean church he is addressing. Is that too hard to see?

Or do you just want to cling ferociously to your position, despite what the word is clearly saying??

[SDG]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

Dan, stop the madness please. Context here. Jesus was talking to the saints and his whole conversation was to the lukewarm Laodicean church. He didn't throw in a verse all of a sudden dealing with sinners, when his whole conversation is about the saints in the Laodicean church!!

Look at whole passage. ..

14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans[f] write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[g] I will vomit you out of My mouth. 1718 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”

Dan, who is he talking to, and what is he talking about? Is he not taking to a lukewarm church that needs to repent?

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION DOCTRINE.

The "anyone" he is speaking to is specifically dealing with anyone in the Laodicean church he is addressing. Is that too hard to see?

Or do you just want to cling ferociously to your position, despite what the word is clearly saying??

The Word is clearly saying when we believe on the Word we are born of the Spirit .... It's an open invitation ... if we abide in His Word, He will abide in us ... A promise is a promise despite the context .... it's applicable in every situation .... are we to only preach this passage in the context of the Laodicean church ... imagine if this was the measure in preaching and teaching.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

UM ... who is ANYONE?? that's what the verse says ... not anyone in the church of Laodicea .... anyone!!!!! Of course he was addressing the church but the anyone is anyone ... generic anyone. Like open invitation anyone.

This not speaking to believers .... cop out holds no water in the light that y'all use Epistles to support your doctrines too ...

That's one scripture ... would you like another one?

Sure it says 'anyone' but you are taking it out of context. The context is Jesus is speaking to the seven CHURCHES in Asia. To read it the way you want it, you have to literally read it as a rebuke to a church, then an altar call to the sinner, and then an encouragement to the church that was just rebuked. The way you read it is like Jesus is arbitrarily interjecting something which doesn't fit with the context. Either Jesus is rebuking a church or He is reaching out to sinners.

You are not the only one to take that verse out of context.

19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.

[J-Roc]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

UM ... who is ANYONE?? that's what the verse says ... not anyone in the church of Laodicea .... anyone!!!!! Of course he was addressing the church but the anyone is anyone ... generic anyone. Like open invitation anyone.

This not speaking to believers .... cop out holds no water in the light that y'all use Epistles to support your doctrines too ...

That's one scripture ... would you like another one?

Ok, I see you addressed the "anyone" part...so I jumped the gun here not realizing it was presented already.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

Ok, I see you addressed the "anyone" part...so I jumped the gun here not realizing it was presented already.

JRoc,

I agree with TRFrance about 'anyone' in this passage. In context it is referring to anyone in the Laodecian church. To extend it's meaning and move it to a bigger picture I would still have to say it can apply to anyone in church that has gone lukewarm or even to an individual saint who has gone lukewarm but not to a sinner.

Here is a post by Pelathais in which he describes a figure of speech called an elipsis which I think may be applicable here: http://www.apostolicfriendsforum.com...2&postcount=10