Saved WithOut The Holy Ghost ?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

This one is even easier:



John 20:22

And when he had said this, he(A) breathed on them and said to them, (B) "Receive the Holy Spirit."

This is symbolic. No one was filled with the Spirit at that time otherwise why did Jesus instruct the disciples to wait at Jerusalem, why not go out and start preaching right away? What about these verses?

John 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

When did Jesus send the Comforter?

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.

John 7:39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

When was Jesus glorified?

Acts 2:32 This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses.
33 Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted,

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Please go down the context road ... since filled to you must always means initial indwelling???? ....

You asked for scripture ... you don't have one for your own question ... is it when they speak in tongues and/or prophesy???

You've mistaken an experience w/ God making fellowship in the heart of a man.

Let alone only 4 conversion experiences of 21 that include tongues in the book of ACTS yet you make the experience salvific ... A REQUIREMENT THAT IS A GIFT???? ... with no evidence for or against this happening in every case ...

if heaven and hell hinged on a tongues experience ... the bible would be more than clear on the issue ...


AS IT IS W/ SAVING FAITH AND TURNING TO GOD.

btw .... Your example in Acts 8 has no tongues. There is a visible laying of hands.
btw ... NO PCIer says the indwelling happens at baptism ... wrong set of believers.

You are redirecting the discussion and going off topic to avoid answering questions. We can discuss speaking in tongues as an evidence. I remember a discussion with Theophilus who penned the phrase "necessary redundancy". But let's finish this discussion first then move on to tongues as a sign.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

An option ... BOOM??? ...the HG is a reality for all believers

that's in contrast to making a gift a REQUIREMENT .. based on a manifestation/ sign for the unbeliever.

But it makes for great stats on the UPCI.org cover page.

the gift is a requirement....Romans 8:9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by J-Roc

Well well, Dan...looks like I qualify as one of those dudes going through the marathons and living terrorized....roughly 16 yrs of living and serving the Lord before I spoke in tongues (which lasted for about 90 minutes without me being able to stop when my first experience happened).

But all those years living for God leading up to that experience was ALL DONE BY ME AND ONLY ME....FOR I HAVE WILL POWER AND MIND OVER MATTER...and I alone showed the fruits of the Spirit by my own abilities and power.....

....uhhh, at least that's what they would have to believe since God was not dwelling in me all those years.

You are not hearing good news, when you are told that it is not enough to place your trust in Jesus Christ and his shed blood on the cross and that you have to wait for an experience to confirm....it is terrorizing news and can last for 16 yrs.

Oy vey....



SOMEONE PLEASE POINT ME TO THE CROSS!!!!!

JRoc, how old were you when you first spoke in tongues? Are you saying you went through 16 years of accountability after repentance before you spoke in tongues? Are you Dan's age now?

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

This one is even easier:


John 20:22

And when he had said this, he(A) breathed on them and said to them, (B) "Receive the Holy Spirit."

Sorry Dan. This is an "easy" one? and you still got it wrong too?

The John 20 passage proves nothing here . Here is the the problem.

Yes, Jesus did say "Receive the Holy Ghost", but did the passage say they actually received it then, or later? They did not receive the Holy Ghost until Pentecost. Have you forgotten that ?

If they had received it in John 20, Jesus would not have told them to "tarry in Jerusalem" for the Spirit to come. (Luke24:49)

Also if the HG had already come upon them there in John 20, Jesus wouldnt not have had to tell them that it would be coming. (see Acts 1:8) "And ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost shall come upon you"

So Dan, I dare say that neither you, nor any PCI-er on this board can show us anywhere in the Word that describes the disciples actually receiving the HG before Pentecost.

Originally Posted by Darcie

My brother Daniel has done a fine job for me.

Thanks Dan! (With all the packing, I don't have the energy to get into this one.)

Darcy,if you choose to have people like Daniel do the doctrinal heavy lifting for you -- be careful whose lead you're following. Jesus talked about blind folks trying to lead others... it doesn't usually work out too well!

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Dan, you're not rightly dividing the word of God. Who is Jesus speaking to when he says he is standing at the door and knocking? The church of Laodicea who are believers not unbelievers.

THANK YOU!!

Jesus was speaking to the saints in the Laodicean church opening their hearts to him

He was not speaking about salvation by any means. How can anyone look at that passage in proper context and say Jesus was talking about salvation of sinners?

This goes back to what I said before. These people pluck scriptures out of context to support a convenient but bogus doctrine.

This guy is so way off, its scary. And he actually acted like Rev 3:20 was a solid proof text for his position. Not even close.

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Why don't you address what TRFrance has written? The question is when does the Spirit indwell a believer? You have said at faith. Please prove it with the scriptures that agree with your assertion.

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

Revelation 3 does alone. ... in conjuction to the other verses listed .... faith goes hand-in-hand w/ repentance ... AFTER COMMANDING REPENTANCE he said if ANYONE HEARS MY VOICE [FAITH COMETH BY HEARING ... HEARING THE WORD] .... THEN I WILL COME IN [INDWELL] AND EAT WITH HIM AND HE WITH ME.

Wrong again, Dan!! If Revelation 3:20 is a key scripture in your argument, it just shows how weak your case is, sir.


Dan, what is your response to Mizpeh's post on that?

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Dan, you're not rightly dividing the word of God. Who is Jesus speaking to when he says he is standing at the door and knocking? The church of Laodicea who are believers not unbelievers.

UM ... who is ANYONE?? that's what the verse says ... not anyone in the church of Laodicea .... anyone!!!!! Of course he was addressing the church but the anyone is anyone ... generic anyone. Like open invitation anyone.

This not speaking to believers .... cop out holds no water in the light that y'all use Epistles to support your doctrines too ...

That's one scripture ... would you like another one?

[SDG]

TR ... you know you asked various questions and each time after they're answered you re-phrase it ... I will delineate your debate technique later.

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

UM ... who is ANYONE?? that's what the verse says ... not anyone in the church of Laodicea .... anyone!!!!! Of course he was addressing the church but the anyone is anyone ... generic anyone. Like open invitation anyone.

This not speaking to believers .... cop out holds no water in the light that y'all use Epistles to support your doctrines too ...

That's one scripture ... would you like another one?

Dan, stop the madness please. Context here. Jesus was talking to the saints and his whole conversation was to the lukewarm Laodicean church. He didn't throw in a verse all of a sudden dealing with sinners, when his whole conversation is about the saints in the Laodicean church!!

Look at whole passage. ..

14 “And to the angel of the church of the Laodiceans[f] write,
‘These things says the Amen, the Faithful and True Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God: 15 “I know your works, that you are neither cold nor hot. I could wish you were cold or hot. 16 So then, because you are lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot,[g] I will vomit you out of My mouth. 1718 I counsel you to buy from Me gold refined in the fire, that you may be rich; and white garments, that you may be clothed, that the shame of your nakedness may not be revealed; and anoint your eyes with eye salve, that you may see. 19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten. Therefore be zealous and repent. 20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and dine with him, and he with Me. 21 To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne.
22 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.”’”

Dan, who is he talking to, and what is he talking about? Is he not taking to a lukewarm church that needs to repent?

THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH SALVATION DOCTRINE.

The "anyone" he is speaking to is specifically dealing with anyone in the Laodicean church he is addressing. Is that too hard to see?

Or do you just want to cling ferociously to your position, despite what the word is clearly saying??

[TRFrance]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

TR ... you know you asked various questions and each time after they're answered you re-phrase it ... I will delineate your debate technique later.

No Dan, I've asked various questions which you have dodged.

Dan, I've asked you different questions... its not a matter of "re-phrasing" the questions. You're obviously evading certain questions, so I've try to ask different questions to elicit some direct answers out of you.

Dan, you still haven't even answered this question I asked you earlier. Remember this post?

Originally Posted by TRFrance

DANIEL, question for you.

Just to make sure I'm clear on something here...

Are being baptized with the spirit, filled with the spirit, and receiving the gift of the Spirit the same thing ?

(Some PCI'ers seem to think they are, and some say they're not. Is there a standardized PCI position on this?)

If not, what is the distinction between them, and what scriptures support a distinction among them, if there is such a distinction ?

Straightforward question. But No answer from you. But its fine. Its starting to matter less and less now. I'm not really finding you to be very credible anyway.


And you still haven't responded directly to the acts 8 and Acts 19 examples that directly undercut your PCI position .

Then again, if you actually think, or claim, Rev 3:20 applies to sinners seeking salvation, you show just how off you are scripturally. That right there shows you have no real credibility on this. Of course, you'd never admit you're wrong on that passage, even though its been made clear to you that you're off. Your'e so in love with your PCI doctrine that you'll cling to it relentlessly.

The concept of rightly dividing the word is just not something you seem to want to employ, at least not on this topic.

(Your using Rev 3:20 as a proof text just illustrates just how biblically weak your position is. I think even some of your PCI buddies would recognize that Rev 3:20 is not a good verse of scripture to use for your doctrine.)

You seemed as if you were one of the PCI-champions on this board, and I welcomed a chance to hear from you and some of the other PCI defenders on this board. But the proof is in the pudding. I've been getting a lot of:

*evasiveness,
*non-answers,
*verses pulled out of context that don't respond to some of my direct points and questions I posed,
*arguments based on logic and feeling that have no scripture to back them up,
*... or I'm getting peripheral stuff thrown out there doesn't even relate to the salvation issue at all !!

You guys are trying to give it your best shot, and your best shot has been shown to be lame. I dunno, somehow I kind of expected better, but I guess I really shouldn't have.

Sorry to say Dan, your doctrinal/scriptural presentations to support your position have been rather weak --- then again, so is the doctrine you’re defending, so I guess that’s to be expected.

I suppose you can only do so much to prop up a doctrine that really has no biblical legs to stand on in the first place.