Saved WithOut The Holy Ghost ?

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

The PCI version of salvation just doesn't stand up to scrutiny, when measured against scripture. It's simply a "Lite Version" of salvation.

.

But does a "Lite version" save?

I can understand why people would like to believe the PCI view. It's more inclusive but I agree it doesn't measure up. We can't change what is written in the Bible but only attempt to get at the truth by His grace.

Who knows why Noah was given exact instructions as to making the ark, or Moses the tabernacle, or why God chose faith in Christ, repentance toward God, and baptisms to bring us into his church? I'd like to know and understand the bigger picture but until then I have to trust the word of God and not the opinions of men.

[drummerboy_dave]

Originally Posted by TRFrance

OK Sam, this is a bit long but bear with me on this…

I'm seeing a lot of opinion and conjecture in your post, Sam. But let's try to stick to what the book says.


You "would say" they were saved? OK. But does the scripture say that?

Answer is "no" .

What it does say is that they received the word and were baptized. (Acts 8, v. 6, and 12) . "Receiving" the word, (i.e. accepting/believing the word) does not constitute salvation in and of itself.

It says plainly that the Holy Ghost had not yet come upon them. (v. 15-16)

The Word tells us that he who does not have the Spirit "is none of His" (Rom 8:9) or as the NIV renders it :
"if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Christ"
And if it is by one Spirit that we are baptized into the body (1 Cor 12:13), then a person is not even in the body of Christ (i.e. "not saved") if they haven't yet received the the Spirit. There's no way to get around that. It might not be popular to teach that, but it's scriptural!

So in light of Rom 8:9 & 1 Cor 12:13 on what basis then (apart from just your feelings), do you assert that the Samaritans in Acts 8 were saved (at verse 12) when the bible tells us they had not received the Holy Spirit?



Did the eunuch say that? Or are you forcing that meaning into the text?
What did the eunuch say?

Lets look at that...verse 36-38:
36...the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized? 37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
38 And he commanded the chariot to stand still: and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch; and he baptized him.
You are totally reading into that verse things that are not stated.
The only thing Philip asked was if the man believed. He wanted a profession of faith.

(The 2 things the scripture has ever shown to be required before baptism were 1/ believing/...or a "confession of faith" showing belief, as we see here in 8:36-38, and of course 2/ repentance [see acts 2:38] )

Did it say Philip required the man to be "saved, or converted" before baptism? No. You're saying that. (And you're probably reading that meaning into the scripture because you feel that believing is synonymous with salvation). All Philip was requiring was the confession of faith. Thats all that passage says.

On that note, we see that Jesus said
"he that believes and is baptized shall be saved. (Mark 16:16).
This indicates to us that baptism is part of the salvation process, not something that comes after salvation. So Philip wouldn't be trying..

before baptizing the man, since baptism isn't something that comes after salvation. NOTICE that Jesus didn't say "he that believes and is saved shall be baptized ...(which one might expect, if baptism truly came after salvation, as some claim).

See the distinction there?



There you go again.
In your opinion they were saved. You seem to rely on your opinion a lot with this. How about if we just stick to the Word?



So again you state that "they were saved", but you just stated you relied on your opinion in reaching the conclusion that they were saved! So now you basically continue to go further on developing your thought, based on something that you yourself stated is just your opinion! Sorry brother, that does not qualify as "rightly dividing the word". Not.Even.Close.



(See previous response). They "had Jesus living within" based on what scripture? I know its your opinion they were saved and had Jesus living within. You've already let us know that. But again, you continue to build your case on a foundation that is based on opinion, not solid scripture.



Okay!! Thank you, Sam.
You're actually helping me make my point here.

Clearly, (A )these terms you just listed all refer to the same single experience. Lets start with that...

And... (B) we know from scripture that receiving "the Holy Spirit", is the same as receiving the "Spirit of Christ", otherwise referred to as "the Spirit of your Father", or simply, "the Spirit". OK, basic stuff -- (there's one Spirit).
So...

That being said...

(1)... If... "he that has not the Spirit of Christ is none of his" (Rom 8:9) , then ...

a...the Samaritans in Acts 8 were "none of His" before they received the Holy Ghost, which didn't take place until verse 17

b... they were not in the body of Christ , since believers are baptized into the body by that one Spirit.

c... to put it simply, they were NOT saved [before verse 17] because there is no salvation without having the Spirit of God (see Rom 8:9 again), which we can all see they had not yet received up to this point.

and (2)... If (as Acts 8:15-16 says) they had not received the Holy Spirit, (aka the Spirit of Christ) , one cannot rightfully say "they had Jesus living within them" , since Jesus comes to live in us by way of His Spirit. The bible makes it abundantly clear that the Holy Ghost and the Spirit of Jesus Christ are that one Spirit.

Therefore, no Holy Spirit=No Spirit of Jesus Christ= No "Jesus living in their hearts"!! Its that simple.

Thus, it is a gross error to teach that a person who repents and believes in Jesus is saved before they "receive", /or "are baptized in"the Holy Spirit. There is nothing scriptural to support the idea/teaching that "Jesus comes and is living in " somebody before they receive the Spirit of Christ).

Essentially such a teaching would presuppose that the believer who comes to God receives a "first blessing" (initial coming of Jesus into their heart).. and then later a "second blessing" (i.e. the outpouring, infilling, baptism of the Spirit). There are many who teach this, and it serves as a nice convenient doctrine that makes a lot of people feel good, but its not supported by scripture, and it's SIMPLY. NOT. TRUE..

This is a very well laid out post, brother. Good work.

[drummerboy_dave]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

But does a "Lite version" save?

I can understand why people would like to believe the PCI view. It's more inclusive but I agree it doesn't measure up. We can't change what is written in the Bible but only attempt to get at the truth by His grace.

Who knows why Noah was given exact instructions as to making the ark, or Moses the tabernacle, or why God chose faith in Christ, repentance toward God, and baptisms to bring us into his church? I'd like to know and understand the bigger picture but until then I have to trust the word of God and not the opinions of men.

Right. It reminds me of 2Timothy 3:5 and 2Timothy 4:3.

[Joelel]

Your not saved if your not filled with the Holy Ghost,If the Spirit don't dwell IN you..Your none of his.

.Rom.8:9: But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his

If we believe we will eat his word and drink his Spirit and only then will we have life.When we drink his Spirit we are filled with his Spirit.


John 6:47. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48. I am that bread of life.
49. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
52. The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?
53. Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh (Word) of the Son of man, and drink his blood,(Drink his Spirit) ye have no life in you.
54. Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.
55. For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.
56. He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57. As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.
58. This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
59. These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum.
60. Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?
61. When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?
62. What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?
63. It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

Be washed by the Holy Ghost. We are washed and regenerated and renewed and SAVED when we are filled with the Holy Ghost.

Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost. -- Titus 3:5

[Darcie]

[QUOTE=TRFrance;326072]Darcie , youre totally missing the point here, and I see you're not even bothering to respond to the scriptural references I mentioned.


Yes the Holy Ghost is a he.. nobody is arguing with that. How is that relevant to this issue?

The Holy Ghost is promised by God. Again, nobody is disputing that. That is not the issue here.
We know the HG is promised by God. The question is, is someone saved before receiving of the Holy Ghost. ? If so, at what point, does the Holy Ghost come into the person?

Obviously you think the baptism of the Holy Ghost is different from the gift of the Holy Ghost. That is so not scriptural , I’m just shaking my head to see that people actually believe that.


I think Sam did a good job of showing that the following descriptions, used interchangeably in the NT, are different ways of describing the same experience.

These are all the same thing. Otherwise show me, Darcy, from scripture, how the baptism of the Holy Ghost is a separate experience from receiving the Holy Ghost.

And explain to me how believing the 2 are the same "makes the Holy Ghost an object". I don't even see the rationale there in that, or how that even matters one way or another in this discussion.


Again, more of the same. Nobody here is "separating them" here. I STILL fail to see how any of this is relevant to the point of Scott's question.

Originally Posted by Darcie

Ok, its a gift. We know that, Darcie.
Let me ask it this way... at what point does the gift come... when you believe? , when you decide to accept Jesus? When they get baptized? or when exactly? When do you know the person has received the gift?


Fine - let's deal with that question, which really deals with the issue at hand . I see what your train of thought is on this, but what scriptures are you using to support this thought?
Lets go with what the scriptures say, not just the concepts you and I might have in our mind.

So you think if someone repents and is baptized, then they must have God in them? . Ok, fine... scriptures please. I am more than willing to hear them. And don't just say acts 2:38, because that doesn't prove anything as far as the point being discussed in this thread.
----

Now speaking of scriptures, I'll go back to my earlier reference, which you didn't bother to respond to... I'll be brief, since I've already referred to it...

1) In Acts 8, the Samaritans repented and were baptized , but had not received the Holy Ghost... until till afterward, when Peter and John came to and prayed for them to receive it. So tell me, doesn't that blatantly undermine your theory on this??

2) Lets throw in another one. Piggybacking on Mizpah’s question above….


If you receive the Holy Ghost by repenting and believing, as some say, why was Ananias sent to pray for Paul to receive the Holy Ghost. Paul saw Jesus, and believed, & had evidently repented, and was even fasting, right?

So 1 point and 1 question for you then…

A--If Paul had received the Holy Ghost just by repenting, he wouldn't have needed Ananias to pray for him to receive the gift...

B---Or do you believe the the Holy Ghost "just comes" at baptism ? In that case, tell us why that didn’t happen with the Samaritans in Acts 8.

I believe that the baptism of the Holy Ghost is the gift, the experience. A baptism that comes from God (who is Father, Son, Spirit). Something we have no control over. He is the one who gives it.

I am not missing the point. I used to believe like you do. I've said my peace and really don't think its worth the debate.

[SDG]

the W & S crowd often forgets that filling/receiving/ the Holy Ghost is not simply an experience of speaking in tongues .... this is a manifestation ... but the Spirit of God has been moving througout time ... when it moved over the face of the waters ... dwelled within prophets and others in the OT and He dwells/makes residence in those that accept Him through faith in His Incarnate Word - Jesus Christ.

Rev. 3:

20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him

Romans 8;11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you

Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me" (John 15:4).

If you abide in My Word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" (John 8:31).

"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me and I in Him." John 6: 53-56

[Joelel]

There is salvation only in the truth.

The Importance of knowing ALL truth and receiving ALL truth,NO perversion.John17:17. Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth. 18. As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world. 19. And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth

You can only be born (regenerated) by the truth of God's word Jesus (Jehoshua,Yehowshuwa)

1 Peter001:022Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth (word) through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: 001:023Being born (regenerated) again, not of corruptible seed (word) , but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever

1 John003:009Whosoever is born (regenerated) of God doth not commit (practice) sin; for his seed (Word) remaineth in him: and he cannot (practice) sin, because he is born (regenerated) of God

[Joelel]

Acts10:43: To him give all the prophets witness, that through his name whosoever believeth in him shall receive remission of sins.So to believe means to Repent and be baptized because Acts 2:38: says,Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins,So we must conclude that if believing gives remission of sins and Repenting and being baptized gives remission of sins,then believing don't simply mean to believe Jesus died for your sins and accept him as you savour

[mizpeh]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alicea

the W & S crowd often forgets that filling/receiving/ the Holy Ghost is not simply an experience of speaking in tongues .... this is a manifestation ... but the Spirit of God has been moving througout time ... when it moved over the face of the waters ... dwelled within prophets and others in the OT and He dwells/makes residence in those that accept Him through faith in His Incarnate Word - Jesus Christ.

Rev. 3:

20Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.

1 John 5:1 Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him

Romans 8;11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you

Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me" (John 15:4).

If you abide in My Word, then you are truly disciples of Mine" (John 8:31).

"Most assuredly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink His blood, you have no life in you. Whoever eats my flesh and drinks My blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For My flesh is food indeed and My blood is drink indeed. He who eats My flesh and drinks My blood abides in Me and I in Him." John 6: 53-56

Why don't you address what TRFrance has written? The question is when does the Spirit indwell a believer? You have said at faith. Please prove it with the scriptures that agree with your assertion.

[SDG]

Originally Posted by mizpeh

Why don't you address what TRFrance has written? The question is when does the Spirit indwell a believer? You have said at faith. Please prove it with the scriptures that agree with your assertion.

Revelation 3 does alone. ... in conjuction to the other verses listed .... faith goes hand-in-hand w/ repentance ... AFTER COMMANDING REPENTANCE he said if ANYONE HEARS MY VOICE [FAITH COMETH BY HEARING ... HEARING THE WORD] .... THEN I WILL COME IN [INDWELL] AND EAT WITH HIM AND HE WITH ME.