Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh
I reconcile it with the nation of Israel in the times of the kings as being a type of the church in the OT. It was full blown blessed and living to its potential in the years of King David. It became fat under Solomon and started to drift toward the end of his reign. It went through a huge split under rehoboam and suffered apostasy and mini revivals throughout the years to the point of going into captivity. But there was always a remnant that God had who served Him in truth without bowing the knee to Baal (false doctrine).
We would have been considered heretics during those 1,813 years of Church history by those in power who were considered orthodox. We would have been in hiding and if found out our writings would have been burned and we would have been martyred. But I believe just as God did in the days of Elijah, He has done all throughout history. I can't prove it but you cannot disprove it either. And we both know there has always been heretics. I'm comfortable saying this because God's truth endures to all generations. (and I'm not talking about the word of God in and of itself but the word of God active in the hearts of men)
Are you saying the RCC is the church? Are you comfortable saying that?
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What we call call the RCC did not exist until the late Middle Ages (despite their own claims!). Really, the full blown RCC did not exist doctrinally until after the Council of Trent (1545-1563) and its reforms were implemented (as late as 1595), and the Counter Reformation (17th Century).
Remember the RCC claims Peter and Paul as their founders. Are you comfortable claiming a common ecclesiastical descent with the RCC? (That's just a rhetorical question). The answers are really not very cut and dried. Technically I am a "member" of the RCC, though 500 years ago they would have tortured me and utimately given me the auto de fe in order to "save my heretical soul."
There were many, many "heretical" groups that existed throughout time. Their books were burned, as well as the writers. But we still can pick up a lot of their teachings and even complete works. The primary "heretics" of this period were either Gnostics dualists or "reformers" of the Catholic tradition. We have extensive writings on these people and from these people. Whole libraries exist. There's
no reason to suspect that Oneness Pentecostals existed and to suppose that there were is like supposing that there's an ancient civilization on Mars. You can't prove that there isn't an advanced civilization on Mars right now.
In fact, the whole argument that you can't "prove a negative" is really a straw man. For example, I can prove that you do not have a live African elephant in your kitchen drawer, even though I've never seen your kitchen. Some things go beyond the bounds of reality and can be reasonably dismissed.
Acts 2:38 salvation during those "silent years" is one of those things. There's not only the absence of any evidence, there's the evidence of absence. Despite some of our paranoid handling of RCC records, the RCC actually did a very good job recording the "errors" of their adversaries. They had to. Their primary weapon against "heretics" was their academic apparatus known as the Magisterium. In order to be effective the Magisterium needed to have accurate records and open debates.
The latest and closest thing to
Acts 2:38 salvation was Tertullian's condemnation of patripassim. However, one other thing that Tertullian condemned about Praxeus & co. was that they didn't practice the Spiritual gifts like Tertullian's group, the Monatanists did. So it seems that even at this point (late 2nd & early 3rd centrury) the "whole package" of
Acts 2:38 was lost.
*** Just to add a note (not necessarily for Mizpeh): No one has even attempted to fill in the blanks on my last post. And I find that to be real progress. As Barb pointed out, the Marvin Arnold school of history is full of holes. What does it say about us and our "love for the truth" when we accepted that stuff for a couple of generations?
To perhaps answer my own question:
does it say that we are only now getting a real love for the truth?
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