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01-02-2008, 08:17 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Adino
True, God alone would know the condition of a man's heart. Only those who confessed Christ were to be baptized. To the church at large confession of faith was the only thing they had to go on to justify baptism. Whether Judas was a true believer any time prior to the betrayal is left to God. Did Judas betray in a time of weakness? When was his mind made up? I dunno. That he would betray was known only to Christ who gave him sop and not to the others, so there was certainly a feigned belief if nothing else. That Judas was a believer when he took his own life seems clear.
Bottom line, Christ first made disciples and those who were considered true believing disciples were THEN baptized.
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Well I agree actually...you don't baptized unbelievers. You don't suddenly become a believer by being baptized. You only baptize believers. That though alone dose not argue against a three stepper viewpoint other than it might put a monkey wrench in the notion that sins are not remitted till baptism.
I see a distinction between justification, sanctification, regeneration etc etc I don't think they automatically all happen at the same time either....they can, but they are distinct. A person is justified by faith alone.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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01-02-2008, 08:21 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
Well I agree actually...you don't baptized unbelievers. You don't suddenly become a believer by being baptized. You only baptize believers. That though alone dose not argue against a three stepper viewpoint other than it might put a monkey wrench in the notion that sins are not remitted till baptism.
I see a distinction between justification, sanctification, regeneration etc etc I don't think they automatically all happen at the same time either....they can, but they are distinct. A person is justified by faith alone.
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Does the justification come through faith or because of faith?
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE....  My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
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01-02-2008, 11:39 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh
Does the justification come through faith or because of faith?
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God justifies us according to our faith
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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01-03-2008, 07:05 AM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
God justifies us according to our faith
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But is faith the end, the destination to our salvation or is faith a means to salvation? IOW are we justified at the moment of faith? or is faith a vehicle to the new birth and becoming part of the body of Christ?
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
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01-03-2008, 04:04 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh
But is faith the end, the destination to our salvation or is faith a means to salvation? IOW are we justified at the moment of faith? or is faith a vehicle to the new birth and becoming part of the body of Christ?
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I didn't say salvation. God justifies us by our faith. A person that is justified can then enter into relation with God, otherwise God does not hear him.
Justification brings us into a right position with God so that we can receive the promises and blessings of God.
Abraham was justified first, his works gave evidence to that faith second and because of that God was able to deal with him, make promises and Abraham was able to believe and accept those promises which brought him into a new land. Had he disobeyed God he would not have received those promises....had he not had faith he never would have had those promises made to him.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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01-03-2008, 08:48 PM
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Registered Member
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 10,749
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Praxeas
I didn't say salvation. God justifies us by our faith. A person that is justified can then enter into relation with God, otherwise God does not hear him.
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God heard me when I prayed to him before I repented.
__________________
His banner over me is LOVE.... My soul followeth hard after thee....Love one another with a pure heart fervently. Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou wouldest believe, thou shouldest see the glory of God?
To be a servant of God, it will cost us our total commitment to God, and God alone. His burden must be our burden... Sis Alvear
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01-03-2008, 08:54 PM
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Go Dodgers!
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Join Date: Feb 2007
Posts: 45,794
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mizpeh
God heard me when I prayed to him before I repented.
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Right, because you had FAITH. You were JUSTIFIED when you had FAITH.
__________________
Let it be understood that Apostolic Friends Forum is an Apostolic Forum.
Apostolic is defined on AFF as:
- There is One God. This one God reveals Himself distinctly as Father, Son and Holy Ghost.
- The Son is God himself in a human form or "God manifested in the flesh" (1Tim 3:16)
- Every sinner must repent of their sins.
- That Jesus name baptism is the only biblical mode of water baptism.
- That the Holy Ghost is for today and is received by faith with the initial evidence of speaking in tongues.
- The saint will go on to strive to live a holy life, pleasing to God.
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