Sorry folks, did not mean to throw a bomb and leave...
Some time ago I did read an article on sexual immorality among black clergy. Perhaps someone can help me ID the piece.
The article was introspective and I believe the study was led by scholars and clergy within the black community. It made the case that immorality was at very high levels and shutting the offenders out of the ministry as many traditional churches have done would leave a giant hole in the "black church" leadership. Consequently many have come to accept this as a part of black culture and restitution to the ministry is nearly always a given - often without any lapse of the office.
I was curious as to where you were going with this. Honestly, I was hoping that it wasn't here...namely that we don't see more Black people in high levels of leadership because we have a greater proclivity towards immorality. I was curious because this was a new spin and I thought I had heard it all. Is this something that you have heard advanced as a reason in relation to this specific thread or something that you read somewhere and juxtaposed on your own. I guess waht I want to know is whether you have heard this reason stated as part of why we don't see Blacks in certain levels of leadership or if you were just trying to fashion your own explanation. I am very curious to know this.
I will not try to beat you up on this because I do not know your intentions but I will say that statements like these are part of the reason that many intellegent Black Apostolics come and leave our ranks. I am aware of immorality in high levels of organizations (UPC included) where it didn't matter whether the person was white or black...only that they were human and sinful.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
I was curious as to where you were going with this. Honestly, I was hoping that it wasn't here...namely that we don't see more Black people in high levels of leadership because we have a greater proclivity towards immorality. I was curious because this was a new spin and I thought I had heard it all. Is this something that you have heard advanced as a reason in relation to this specific thread or something that you read somewhere and juxtaposed on your own. I guess waht I want to know is whether you have heard this reason stated as part of why we don't see Blacks in certain levels of leadership or if you were just trying to fashion your own explanation. I am very curious to know this.
I will not try to beat you up on this because I do not know your intentions but I will say that statements like these are part of the reason that many intellegent Black Apostolics come and leave our ranks. I am aware of immorality in high levels of organizations (UPC included) where it didn't matter whether the person was white or black...only that they were human and sinful.
Stew, I hope I don't offend you or anyone else but I'm gonna tell it straight. I know of SEVERAL COGIC Bishops who have children by other women in the church. Some are on their general board. some have boys on the side too. There is one case here in Oakland, a General board member paid off the mother ($400,000) of a 15yr old with whom he had a child by to keep her from turning him in. I can tell you NUMEROUS cases. I'm not saying this is a case of race perhaps just denomination?? the bishops are placed on a pedastol of being "untouchable" . It is also prevelant in the Full Gospel Baptist (paul morton's group). for some reason these issues are brushed aside like nothing happend- i don't get it
I don't think this type of thing is as prominant in the Apostolic ranks, PAW, UPC, COOLJC etc.
Stew, I hope I don't offend you or anyone else but I'm gonna tell it straight. I know of SEVERAL COGIC Bishops who have children by other women in the church. Some are on their general board. some have boys on the side too. There is one case here in Oakland, a General board member paid off the mother ($400,000) of a 15yr old with whom he had a child by to keep her from turning him in. I can tell you NUMEROUS cases. I'm not saying this is a case of race perhaps just denomination?? the bishops are placed on a pedastol of being "untouchable" . It is also prevelant in the Full Gospel Baptist (paul morton's group). for some reason these issues are brushed aside like nothing happend- i don't get it
I don't think this type of thing is as prominant in the Apostolic ranks, PAW, UPC, COOLJC etc.
Mark, the whole point of this thread was not whether all black clergymen are above reproach, it was about why we do not see more diversity amongst the leadership specifically in the UPC. I would not attempt to defend or vouch for the fallen Black pastors in other organizations any more than I would the fallen White pastors in other organizations. The stories of Paulk and others are so perverted and convoluted that the average sinner lives above that.
For someone like me who was raised around and able to observe many of the respected Black leaders in our particular org, it is curious to me that a proclivity for immorality would be advanced as a cause for the lack of representation and visibility at some level. Once again, things are better now than they have ever been in my opinion, but I was struck by that statement and looking for more clarity as it relates to this org...the only one I've ever been a part of.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
Mark, the whole point of this thread was not whether all black clergymen are above reproach, it was about why we do not see more diversity amongst the leadership specifically in the UPC. I would not attempt to defend or vouch for the fallen Black pastors in other organizations any more than I would the fallen White pastors in other organizations. The stories of Paulk and others are so perverted and convoluted that the average sinner lives above that.
For someone like me who was raised around and able to observe many of the respected Black leaders in our particular org, it is curious to me that a proclivity for immorality would be advanced as a cause for the lack of representation and visibility at some level. Once again, things are better now than they have ever been in my opinion, but I was struck by that statement and looking for more clarity as it relates to this org...the only one I've ever been a part of.
Okay, understood. I thought the topic had veered off but I hadn't followed this thread step by step either.
As for my comments, I tend to think it's more prevelant in certain denominations more than anything. as I said, I haven't seen it to the level of other groups I mentioned in ANY of the Apostolic groups.
Okay, understood. I thought the topic had veered off but I hadn't followed this thread step by step either.
As for my comments, I tend to think it's more prevelant in certain denominations more than anything. as I said, I haven't seen it to the level of other groups I mentioned in ANY of the Apostolic groups.
carry on
No, I recognize your point, I'm just saying that I would not point to what many White Catholic priests do as an indication of how a White UPC leader would behave at Headquarters. There is a disconnect there to me, and to advance that argument would be grasping at straws in my opinion. I know that that was not what you were trying to do, I'm just wanting to keep it all in perspective.
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
Is there a higher rate of immorality among preachers than there is among truck drivers, salesmen, waiters, actors, managers, welders, assemblers, etc.?
__________________
Sam also known as Jim Ellis
Apostolic in doctrine
Pentecostal in experience
Charismatic in practice
Non-denominational in affiliation
Inter-denominational in fellowship
Is there a higher rate of immorality among preachers than there is among truck drivers, salesmen, waiters, actors, managers, welders, assemblers, etc.?
Boy, I sure hope not though now I'm not so sure. By "preacher" do you mean everybody everywhere who preaches anything?
__________________
There are no weapons of mass destruction in Iraq, Chuck Norris lives in Houston.
Either the United States will destroy ignorance, or ignorance will destroy the United States. – W.E.B. DuBois
Is there a higher rate of immorality among preachers than there is among truck drivers, salesmen, waiters, actors, managers, welders, assemblers, etc.?
Dunno, but this reminds me of something my brother-in-law told me. He's a retired cop. Said the people who put up the biggest fight when arrested for a crime are lawyers and preachers!
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
No, I recognize your point, I'm just saying that I would not point to what many White Catholic priests do as an indication of how a White UPC leader would behave at Headquarters. There is a disconnect there to me, and to advance that argument would be grasping at straws in my opinion. I know that that was not what you were trying to do, I'm just wanting to keep it all in perspective.
I think it relates to the mentality of Leaders being "the untouchables" in ANY group, creed, race, denomination.etc
My Father was an alter boy and could tell you some stories about those preist. but he grew up in an era that if you even eluded that a leader was wrong it was equal to blaspheming to holy ghost.
Stew, I hope I don't offend you or anyone else but I'm gonna tell it straight. I know of SEVERAL COGIC Bishops who have children by other women in the church. Some are on their general board. some have boys on the side too. There is one case here in Oakland, a General board member paid off the mother ($400,000) of a 15yr old with whom he had a child by to keep her from turning him in. I can tell you NUMEROUS cases. I'm not saying this is a case of race perhaps just denomination?? the bishops are placed on a pedastol of being "untouchable" . It is also prevelant in the Full Gospel Baptist (paul morton's group). for some reason these issues are brushed aside like nothing happend- i don't get it
St Mark if you dont mind, please tell us what this has to do with the issue at hand here, namely the relative lack of representation of men of color in the upper echelons of the UPCI.
Quote:
Originally Posted by tstew
Mark, the whole point of this thread was not whether all black clergymen are above reproach, it was about why we do not see more diversity amongst the leadership specifically in the UPC. I would not attempt to defend or vouch for the fallen Black pastors in other organizations any more than I would the fallen White pastors in other organizations. The stories of Paulk and others are so perverted and convoluted that the average sinner lives above that.
For someone like me who was raised around and able to observe many of the respected Black leaders in our particular org, it is curious to me that a proclivity for immorality would be advanced as a cause for the lack of representation and visibility at some level.
I agree. I'm still flabergasted that anyone would float that as a possible reason... flabbergasted also that anyone would try to give [anecdotal] support such an outrageous contention, as if it actually contains any merit.
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