How would you define AFF?

Hoovie · #1 09-12-2009, 08:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

I think the numbers who have left and are more "liberal" over a statistically significant period of time, would eclipse the number that ran away to become the new wrestling federation.

I would not argue with that - a significant number even appear to have embraced homosexuality...

oops!

Look. I think the WPF forming was a good thing for the UPC - and I don't mean "good riddance" - just that there is a difference in direction. I don't wish to defend the ultra cons be they in or out of the UPC.

I believe the UPC is moving in the right direction in many areas. We have more progressive pastors than ever before. More are joining the UPC then are leaving. OK - so it may not be much, but that is far better than most mainstream denominations can say.

I think very, very few are anonymously planning their escapes from legalism.

Baron1710 · #2 09-12-2009, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoovie

I would not argue that - a significant number even appear to have embraced homosexuality...

oops!

Look. I think the WPF forming was a good thing for the UPC - and I don't mean "good riddance" - just that there is a difference in direction. I don't wish to defend the ultra cons be they in or out of the UPC.

I believe the UPC is moving in the right direction in many areas. We have more progressive pastors than ever before. More are joining the UPC then are leaving. OK - so it may not be much, but that is far better than most mainstream denominations can say.

I think very, very few are anonymously planning their escapes from legalism.

I agree it has been good for the UPC, however events like youth congress and reverting back to a business dress for people on the platform was a step backwards. It also shows the Wrestling Federation still has influence on the UPC.

Hoovie · #3 09-12-2009, 08:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

I agree it has been good for the UPC, however events like youth congress and reverting back to a business dress for people on the platform was a step backwards. It also shows the Wrestling Federation still has influence on the UPC.

Does it really mean anything at all other than politics? Naturally there will be a temporary move to pacify the conservative elements who remained after the departure...

Baron1710 · #4 09-12-2009, 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoovie

Does it really mean anything at all other than politics? Naturally there will be a temporary move to pacify the conservative elements who remained after the departure...

It means the Gospel is still secondary to giving young people a platform to minister to their own. It means legalism still plays a major roll in UPC thought and action. It may be a small thing, but it is a symptom of bigger problems and is why they continue to bleed their youth.

Hoovie · #5 09-12-2009, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

It means the Gospel is still secondary to giving young people a platform to minister to their own. It means legalism still plays a major roll in UPC thought and action. It may be a small thing, but it is a symptom of bigger problems and is why they continue to bleed their youth.

See I don't equate the two. Requiring biz attire on platform simply does not mean a church (much less an entire organization) is legalistic.

This is a battle that pretty much all denoms are fighting. There are plenty of "non-standard" traditionalist churches who resist contemporary worship and attire. This is not a UPC or even Pentecostal debate.

Baron1710 · #6 09-12-2009, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hoovie

See I don't equate the two. Requiring biz attire on platform simply does not mean a church (much less an entire organization) is legalistic.

This is a battle that pretty much all denoms are fighting. There are plenty of "non-standard" traditionalist churches who resist contemporary worship and attire. This is not a UPC or even Pentecostal debate.

Two years ago they relaxed the standards, and now this response. It is a huge factor in why people are leaving the UPC. Ask yourself why the children of almost every teacher at CLC, when I was there, are still in ministry but NOT in the UPC. I won't name names but it is a fact.

It is a real problem the UPC has shackled itself to ideas that are strangling it. The dress code for the most recent youth congress is evidence of it.

Pressing-On · #7 09-13-2009, 06:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

I agree it has been good for the UPC, however events like youth congress and reverting back to a business dress for people on the platform was a step backwards. It also shows the Wrestling Federation still has influence on the UPC.

Approx 17,0000 in attendance was a step back? Okay.......lol

Baron1710 · #8 09-13-2009, 07:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pressing-On

Approx 17,0000 in attendance was a step back? Okay.......lol

It isn't how many that showed up that I was taking issue with it was requiring young people to dress up for an event that is about them because they are too afraid of the label that comes with some freedom. You tell a kid what to do everyday of his life and then when he turns 18 just turn him out. They have got to learn to give the kids the room to figure some things out for themselves while they are still at "home." They will never learn to be leaders as long as they are dictated to on every aspect of their life...they will only learn to be little dictators.

*AQuietPlace* · #9 09-13-2009, 07:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

You tell a kid what to do everyday of his life and then when he turns 18 just turn him out. They have got to learn to give the kids the room to figure some things out for themselves while they are still at "home."

Thank you, Baron, I needed to hear that. It confirmed what I've been feeling about a situation in my own life.

Pressing-On · #10 09-13-2009, 07:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baron1710

It isn't how many that showed up that I was taking issue with it was requiring young people to dress up for an event that is about them because they are too afraid of the label that comes with some freedom. You tell a kid what to do everyday of his life and then when he turns 18 just turn him out. They have got to learn to give the kids the room to figure some things out for themselves while they are still at "home." They will never learn to be leaders as long as they are dictated to on every aspect of their life...they will only learn to be little dictators.

I was "wild as a March hare" after turning 18 and leaving a structured Catholic environment. How God was able to reach me later is that I did learn something about the love of Jesus Christ.

My daughter did the same thing, leaving a structured UPC environment. She is now back in and has stronger convictions than she has ever had. She said it's not a party line, but something God has done in her heart.

I say we need to leave it alone and let everyone work it out for themselves. I'm not going to rail on anyone. I'm not perfect and that makes me not have the right.

You can't look in my daughter's face and tell her she is wrong. It's not your right. It's between her and God. We will stand before God someday and be judged by our words toward interfering in the personal direction of any life.

From my experience, if people say they followed a legalist rule that skewed their image of God, I will say that they are confessing they never had a personal relationship with Jesus Christ in the first place. He is above every organization and design of man. He is the one that leads us no matter where we stand.