One Nation Under God

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

I believe your assessment is too simplistic. To simply call them deists, ignores the fact that they made references to a God who does interact in the affairs of man. I think the truth about these men is somewhere between the claims of people who think the were basically evangelical in their beliefs and those who want to say they were all atheist. There was certainly a wide range of beliefs among the founders. George Washington's Granddaughter which he raised (though technically it was his wife's granddaughter) said that she had no doubts as to his Christian faith. Thomas Jefferson heard from someone who heard from someone which he reported that it was otherwise.

Many at this time, including Franklin and Jefferson, doubted or denied the divinity of Jesus Christ. It would be impossible to place these men in the Christian camp. Franklin was some sort of theist, as were most of the more influential founders. Many of those who would be considered Christian were more of the unitarian sort than otherwise.

Thomas Paine was perhaps the closest thing to an atheist out of that group - though many called him deeply spiritual - just very anti-religious.

The best witness we have of George Washington's beliefs are his own writings. When they mention God, they clearly describe a deistic God. The spurious addition of a forged "Prayer Journal" is good evidence that even those who wanted Washington to be more orthodox found his extent writings wanting on this account.

And Jefferson was close to Washington. He knew Washington personally and had been with him through many ordeals. To invent the "Thomas Jefferson heard from someone who heard from someone which he reported that it was otherwise" sentence is a slip on your part that we don't need to spend much time with.

The either/or option that you want to split - "the truth about these men is somewhere between the claims of people who think the were basically evangelical in their beliefs and those who want to say they were all atheist" - seems to ignore the point of what these men actually did believe. They were not evangelicals. They were not atheists - not even Tom Paine. They (the vast majority of the founders) were Deists. Deism is a specific philosophy.

With the exception of really just a handful of men, John Adams the most prominent among them, the founders were deists. Washington seems to go to pains to point this out in his inaugural address. The "Almighty Being" is not invoked to render aid or assistance against the enemy. Any goodness that is received by the people is the fruit of "Providence."

"The Almighty Being" is the one who bestows His benediction upon the labors of the people; not the one who labors on behalf of the people.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by Brother David

Thomas Paine was perhaps the closest thing to an atheist out of that group - though many called him deeply spiritual - just very anti-religious.

The best witness we have of George Washington's beliefs are his own writings. When they mention God, they clearly describe a deistic God. The spurious addition of a forged "Prayer Journal" is good evidence that even those who wanted Washington to be more orthodox found his extent writings wanting on this account.

And Jefferson was close to Washington. He knew Washington personally and had been with him through many ordeals. To invent the "Thomas Jefferson heard from someone who heard from someone which he reported that it was otherwise" sentence is a slip on your part that we don't need to spend much time with.

The either/or option that you want to split - "the truth about these men is somewhere between the claims of people who think the were basically evangelical in their beliefs and those who want to say they were all atheist" - seems to ignore the point of what these men actually did believe. They were not evangelicals. They were not atheists - not even Tom Paine. They (the vast majority of the founders) were Deists. Deism is a specific philosophy.

With the exception of really just a handful of men, John Adams the most prominent among them, the founders were deists. Washington seems to go to pains to point this out in his inaugural address. The "Almighty Being" is not invoked to render aid or assistance against the enemy. Any goodness that is received by the people is the fruit of "Providence."

"The Almighty Being" is the one who bestows His benediction upon the labors of the people; not the one who labors on behalf of the people.

Oh but we do need to spend some time there. Because about this you are wrong. I didn't slip nor invent. these are the words of Jefferson on the subject.

Dr. Rush tells me that he had it from Asa Green that when the clergy addressed Genl. Washington on his departure from the govmt, it was observed in their consultation that he had never on any occasion said a word to the public which showed a belief in the Xn religion and they tho[ugh]t they should so pen their address as to force him at length to declare publicly whether he was a Christian or not. They did so. However he observed the old fox was too cunning for them. He answered every article of their address particularly except that, which he passed over without notice.

[...]

I know that Gouverneur Morris, who pretended to be in his secrets & believed himself to be so, has often told me that Genl. Washington believed no more of that system than he himself did.

http://www.positiveliberty.com/2009/...en-affair.html

The founders were a variety of things including deist, christian, and more common during this age of enlightenment a curious cross between the major tenants of Christianity and deism. Most did not fall strictly into the deistic category because they viewed God as working in the affairs of men, though probably not as a personal saviour since some clearly rejected the view that Jesus was God in any sense.

I am not arguing that the founders were Christians in the modern sense at all, I do not accept that view. However those who wish to claim a completely atheistic worldview have skewed the views of the founders as well.

There are revisionists on both sides that is why I said the truth is in the middle.