Would you say that "the way you feel has to do with His presence?" Boy, what an awesome and personal thing His Presence is!
maybe... we'll see!
In actuality, I'd say what this thread stirs in my heart has a lot to do with His presence. Very, very much yes. Maybe or maybe not at this minute, but the memories of those most wonderful times... Sometimes it isn't a matter of trying to get in His presence, but just stopping to say "thanks." And that is how I'm feeling tonight. Just grateful for those times.
Just curious Timmy, what parts of the bible would you remove if any, can ya give us some particular examples and maybe a guiding principle so we can figure out the other parts of it you would remove?
It's not that I want to fix the canon by throwing out what doesn't belong and end up with the real "word of God". The Bible is a collection of ancient documents, written by people who had interesting points of view. All of it is worth studying, and for the same reason as any other historical documents and artifacts.
But what you are probably looking for is how I decide what parts of it to take to heart, and to follow. Most of that would be in the teachings of Jesus. Love you enemy. Help the poor. The Good Samaritan. Forgiveness (if you don't take it too far ). Suffer the little children. The Golden Rule.
One principle I would use is this: if it is useful, use it. If it's not, don't. E.g., I'm not a big fan of Matthew 10:35 and the like, where He wants His followers to be more devoted to Him than to their own families.
The idea that the Bible is God's instruction book for all mankind has caused a lot of problems. For one thing, since so much of it can be interpreted in many different ways, it is! That causes division and fighting. Then there is the competition among the factions to get their version of the truth out, and make as many converts as they can. And it's not just "reaching" heathens to bring them to Christianity. The factions are also trying to correct the others' mistakes. E.g., Trinnies try to convert Apostolics to their "truth", and vice versa.
Also, some scriptures, if taken at face value, can lead to death -- usually children, whose parents stand on the promises of healing, rather than take them to a doctor. When people try to believe those and other promises, but don't see them fulfilled, it leads to all kinds of problems: confusion, guilt, despair.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Paul, at least it doesn't sound like it's foreign or out of place.
Is there preaching about Spirit baptism? Do things get deep in worship?
Just very curious. Not in a debate mode right now at all
No, it's not foreign or out of place. Personally, I believe we could use more preaching/teaching about Spirit baptism. The preaching/teaching really doesn't go very deep where I'm at. I think the results in our altar are a clear indicator of such.
Our worship is almost always music-inspired and usually stops when the music stops. I'm not picking on music here, just stating what I have observed. Sometimes it seems real, sometimes it doesn't, which could point to the depth of our worship as being rather shallow.
I'm like you here, Jeffery, I'm curious.
So the opposite perspective: Preaching on Holy Ghost (or anything else) isn't very deep at my church either. People go to the altar and pray. They start to cry. Often saints start grabbing their arms and pulling them to their feet soon after they start crying. They start talking to them while they are still praying. (I don't know what they say.) The people start moving around while they are praying, and probably about 20% of the time end up either spinning and jumping or bucking (pulling back on the people around them, its weird). Everyone starts shouting, thinking they are getting the Holy Ghost. Their countenance: grimmace or very sad face or shock. No stammering lips. And they generally never come back. No one is supposed to tell them they got the Holy Ghost, but the response of the people around them would make them think they were feeling God. Sometimes people end up getting hurt. Often they never come back.
I haven't ever figured this out... it isn't my place to tell anyone what they did or didn't get. But when I see these things happen, I'm grieved. I remember altar services at camps and such, where people's faces would light up and relax as they got closer to God. A few times it seemed that you could see a glimpse of what God wanted them to be or how God saw them during those times. In some circles this relaxed peaceful place in God seems to be considered Charismatic now. Maybe I'm mistaken. I hope so.
Where in the N.T. do we get the worship-style (touchyfeely-emotional) doctrine that we practice in our modern-day apostolic/pentecostal services? And, how do our 'worship' services then differ from the Charismatics?
Now - I am not slamming any joyous worship of our Lord - just looking for the bases for the often time 'required' "you're not running (jumping, shouting, etc.) fast enough to be truly worshiping God", kind of 'congregational encouragement'.
Me? I am one of those who is often made fun of (even ridiculed) by the preacher because I do not frequently engage in these kinds of activities: Performance on demand, i.e., applied crowd control techniques and emotional manipulation). But then again, I did not get too hyped up over a high school football game either, even when paying in the marching band. I did not go to school dances, not out of a religious conviction, but because I didn't know how to dance and really didn't care to learn. I never enjoyed crowds much larger than four or five people, even after addressing groups of several hundred.
So, please show me the biblical 'dancing in the spirit', which I have done on occasion, or running over pews, the aisles, bouncing off the walls, etc., like Jesus and the disciples (including Peter and Paul) and the other church leaders did in the Temple and synagogues.
Now, please don't give me the David example. That was one man dancing wild in the streets on a special occasion, not an acceptable practice in the Temple or even a synagogue. To follow this one event as a worship pattern, we would all have too strip down to our underwear and perform a daylight 'holy streak' of our neighborhoods. Oops, there goes our modesty standards!
When is the presence of God noted? By an emotional high? Sometimes! Also by walking in the continued realization that the Holy God of creation dwells within you at all times. He doesn't come and go depending on how one feels at any particular time (good or bad) or even if you have sinned or not. While we play games with the word of God, He yet remains faithful. Goose bumps are delightful - but I don't judge my relationship with Jesus on how many goosebumps I get, how long they stay around, or how much of a sweat I can work up.
Sorry kids, guess I just don't measure up to the good old Pentecostal jive that is necessary to 'bring down the Spirit' (1 Kings 18). Even so, the presence of the Lord is sometimes stronger than at other times, but of that is mostly dependent on how perceptive I choose to be.
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It makes no difference whether you study in the holy language, or in Arabic, or Aramaic [or in Greek or even in English]; it matters only whether it is done with understanding. - Moshe Maimonides.
Biblical examples other than David:
The lame man heaed at the gate Beautiful??? Walking and leaping and praising God?
(hmmm... why were walking and leaping named separately if they are all a part of praise... oh, yeah, probably to confirm to all doubters that he was really healed, right?)
I've always felt the most worshipful when I was standing at the edge of the ocean, or sitting in the woods, when I was admiring a sunset, or looking into the eyes of a newborn baby. Those are the times when I feel like my heart will burst with love and adoration for the God of all creation.
I've always felt the most worshipful when I was standing at the edge of the ocean, or sitting in the woods, when I was admiring a sunset, or looking into the eyes of a newborn baby. Those are the times when I feel like my heart will burst with love and adoration for the God of all creation.
Now - I am not slamming any joyous worship of our Lord - just looking for the bases for the often time 'required' "you're not running (jumping, shouting, etc.) fast enough to be truly worshiping God", kind of 'congregational encouragement'.
Me? I am one of those who is often made fun of (even ridiculed) by the preacher because I do not frequently engage in these kinds of activities: Performance on demand, i.e., applied crowd control techniques and emotional manipulation).
So, please show me the biblical 'dancing in the spirit', which I have done on occasion, or running over pews, the aisles, bouncing off the walls, etc., like Jesus and the disciples (including Peter and Paul) and the other church leaders did in the Temple and synagogues.
Good thoughts. By nature I'm not "emotional" or "demonstrative" and often felt like I didn't measure up because I didn't "run" the aisles.
A pastor I had 20 yrs ago commented that the dancing, shouting often seen had to do with how God had saved them. Many people have been totally transformed.
He said that since I was raised in church my worship would reflect that. Not sure I expressed it properly.
On another comment you made.....many churches do expect "dancing, shouting on demand" and if you don't__________you're not worshiping or even "saved".
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"Le sens commun n'est pas si commun."
(Common sense is not so common.)
Voltaire
Common sense is genius dressed in working clothes.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing.
William James
A pastor friend was between pastoring and attending an assembly that pushed outward shows of worship.
This man did not jump, shout, dance....and the pastor took him aside and said since he was "used" (music ministry) he had to participate in their worship. If he didn't show outward "worship" he would be removed from his position.
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"Le sens commun n'est pas si commun."
(Common sense is not so common.)
Voltaire
Common sense is genius dressed in working clothes.
Ralph Waldo Emerson
Common sense and a sense of humor are the same thing, moving at different speeds. A sense of humor is just common sense, dancing.
William James
). Suffer the little children. The Golden Rule.
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