Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
I believe forgiveness and remission are the same thing. I do feel we get forgiveness at repentance. The angels rejoice over one soul that repents. But nonetheless I feel baptism is required since it is the fruits meet for repentance, as John the Baptist said. In other words, if it is a repentance in which God sees the obedience to do anything He wills to do, like baptism, then God forgives. But if the alleged repentance is seen by God to sidestep an obedient act of baptism, then God does not forgive.
It's like the fact that God granted Abraham righteousness for his FAITH THAT WORKS. If God knew Abraham would not obey to be circumcised, then the faith Abraham had was not the faith God took to grant Abe righteous. Same with baptism. [b] Otherwise, how can one get Spirit baptism in Acts 10 without forgiveness first?[/b] |
simple...
Gen 15:6 is not about forgiveness it is about judgment of response and God considered his response right. Which is the point of Paul and circumcision. God considered/ajudged a persons response(as in Abraham) righteous before he was circumcised. Thus circumcision is not a specific righteousing aspect in itself. Thus Pauls point that the person who does X and having not Y, yet you have Y and not doing X. Circumcision was simply setting apart of something that was supposed to be of the heart.
God's judgment of action as just/righteous does not mean a person is judged as a whole righeous but that the deed they did was considered righteous or just action unto them...
Psa 106:30 Then Phinehas stood up and intervened, and the plague was stayed.
Psa 106:31 And that was counted to him as righteousness from generation to generation forever.
We receive the blessings of God by faith... this is not about mental assent but abuut response
Col 2:11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision
made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which
you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And
you, who were dead in your trespasses and the
uncircumcision of your flesh,
God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
We where dead without the working of God and his circumcision at BAPTISM and cutting away of the old life of sin. Thus we where made ALIVE TOGETHOR WITH HIM. WHEN, WHEN, WHEN? AT BAPTISM!
1)God simply seeing a persons heart turned does not mean they have asked or received forgiveness or received atonement.
Mat 5:23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you,
Mat 5:24 leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and
then come and offer your gift. Which is talking about offering of atonment.
We still after turning have to seek the atonement and offer ourselves(covenant) to him.
2) Also doesn't mean they are in covenant.
3)
Acts 10 they hear the Word and God moved. God had already seen these peoples hearts toward him in Word and deed thus the reason God summoned Peter to speak and witness. God thus considered them "right" beforehand. Has nothing to do with covenant but that they where not a enmity with him. Past action of sin does not stand in the way of God moving on you! The present aspect of spiritually your heart at enmity or against him does. Thus
Acts 10 and the people being filled with the Spirit does not need forgiveness BEFORE he fills them or moved upon them. You can still have a debt against you it has nothing to do with the heart being toward God. They then where COMMANDED.... what does Peter say
Act 10:47 "
Can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people, who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?"
Why would it matter to WITHOLD? Because it was about covenant unto unification with Christ and circumcising the old man away.
Act 10:48 And
he commanded them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. Then they asked him to remain for some days.
It wasn't about oh you have confessed JEsus by your little prayer.... NO HE COMMANDED THEM! This was Peter seeing GOD'S ACTION as a command unto him to bring them into covenant..... HE SHOULD NOT RESIST THEM BEING UNITED WITH CHRIST! THus why he takes swift action!
what else does Peter say...
Act 11:17 If then God gave the same gift to them
as he gave to us when we believed in the Lord Jesus Christ,
who was I that I could stand in God's way?"
way for what....? HOW CAN PETER STAND IN GOD'S WAY... what was the PATH that he could stand in? BAPTISM AND UNIFICATION WITH CHRIST!
v47 ...can anyone withhold water for baptizing these people...
Act 11:18 When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God
has granted repentance (TURNING CHANGING DIRECTION OF THE MIND)
that leads to life."
Which comes after baptism because we are IN covenant and turned of heart with promises from God that our life has been made new and the old man taken away.
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in
newness of life.
as repeated above
Col 2:11 In him also you were circumcised with a circumcision
made without hands, by putting off the body of the flesh, by the circumcision of Christ,
Col 2:12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which
you were also raised with him through faith in the powerful working of God, who raised him from the dead.
Col 2:13 And
you, who were dead in your trespasses and the
uncircumcision of your flesh,
God made alive together with him, having forgiven us all our trespasses,
We where dead without the working of God and his circumcision at BAPTISM and cutting away of the old life of sin. Thus we where
made ALIVE TOGETHOR WITH HIM. WHEN, WHEN, WHEN? AT BAPTISM!
Hybrid Mode
