The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

TheLegalist seems to think the New Covenant was literally something brand-new, rather than seeing the coming Messiah connected as part of a faithful plan of God to bring about salvation for the entire world. The cross was not a Plan B. When you use words like "accessing" a covenant, and require the so-called "testator" to have to be dead and resurrected before The Messiah, as the Son of God, has Sovereign Power to save whom he wants to save.

The Thieves on the cross have always been treated with contempt by 3-Steppers, and I don't blame them. They risk their entire worldview crumbling. This is where they cling to Darby and Scofield's twisted Dispensationalist theology.

nice, poor reading and comprehension skills. You should know by now and stop skewing what I have said all along. The new covenant was based upon that which was old but realized through the death and quickening Spirit of Christ.

I have no problem with the theif on the cross not contempt. He was under what he was under.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

nice, poor reading and comprehension skills. You should know by now and stop skewing what I have said all along. The new covenant was based upon that which was old but realized through the death and quickening Spirit of Christ.

I have no problem with the theif on the cross not contempt. He was under what he was under.

"under what he was under"
Scriptural language here?

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

"under what he was under"
Scriptural language here?

he was under the old covenant...

[mfblume]

The thief was not in a day when atonement had already been made. Atonement was not made until after Christ arose the third day and ascended to the holiest in Heaven.

At any rate, Jesus told the disciples at least 43 days after the thief died to BEGIN preaching repentance and remission of sins in His name at Jerusalem after the received the power from on high, which is Spirit Baptism. And they BEGAN preaching that message on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38. Why preach something else?

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The thief was not in a day when atonement had already been made. Atonement was not made until after Christ arose the third day and ascended to the holiest in Heaven.

At any rate, Jesus told the disciples at least 43 days after the thief died to BEGIN preaching repentance and remission of sins in His name at Jerusalem after the received the power from on high, which is Spirit Baptism. And they BEGAN preaching that message on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38. Why preach something else?

Mike... they don't want to get it. That's the thing. They have false views of works/law etc... which then goes and floods over to poor views of atonement and baptism, judgment and covenant requirements unto eternal life.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Mike... they don't want to get it. That's the thing. They have false views of works/law etc... which then goes and floods over to poor views of atonement and baptism, judgment and covenant requirements unto eternal life.

I agree. Notice there is no inkling of atonement concept in their words. KWSS even said that the difference of the cross is nothing as though it is a stretch to say that before the cross and after the cross there would be a huge difference. Wow. I ,mean, wow. WE are the ones speaking about atonement and covenantal issues that require an action on our parts by way of standing as faith that works, and by non means Works without faith. And that corresponds to James' words quite perfectly. It's a wonder Noah had to build an ark according to this doctrine!! Why did Abel have to offer a better sacrifice? Why did Abraham take one step at all to go to a land God promised? All of these acted by faith and that action was required and did not take the place of salvation by works any more than baptism and Spirit infilling do. Read Hebrews 11. ACTIONS AFTER ACTION AFTER ACTION by FAITH. They acted without any evidence that what was said was true, making it an act of faith. And that action alone did not save them since it was faith that works and was action of faith.

So, let us rip out the entire 11th chapter of Hebrews, for that is saying exacvtly what we have related to these folk. And let us rip out James 2, and, for Heaven's sake, remove Peter's words that say "Baptism doth also now even save us."

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I agree. Notice there is no inkling of atonement concept in their words. KWSS even said that the difference of the cross is nothing as though it is a stretch to say that before the cross and after the cross there would be a huge difference. Wow. I ,mean, wow. WE are the ones speaking about atonement and covenantal issues that require an action on our parts by way of standing as faith that works, and by non means Works without faith. And that corresponds to James' words quite perfectly. It's a wonder Noah had to build an ark according to this doctrine!! Why did Abel have to offer a better sacrifice? Why did Abraham take one step at all to go to a land God promised? All of these acted by faith and that action was required and did not take the place of salvation by works any more than baptism and Spirit infilling do. Read Hebrews 11. ACTIONS AFTER ACTION AFTER ACTION by FAITH. They acted without any evidence that what was said was true, making it an act of faith. And that action alone did not save them since it was faith that works and was action of faith.

So, let us rip out the entire 11th chapter of Hebrews, for that is saying exacvtly what we have related to these folk. And let us rip out James 2, and, for Heaven's sake, remove Peter's words that say "Baptism doth also now even save us."

very well put. As I have said forever.... works is about source. God is the author or we are the author of us saving ourselves. Heb 5:9 makes this teaching ABUNDANTLY CLEAR...

Heb 5:9 And by being perfected in this way, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

thus our source of obedience/works is that of Christ NOT OURSELVES. The problem is they want to group any activity as "personal works" and by doing so they make a mockery of the Word and a total contradiction. We can explain "faith that works" they can't. They make obedience "forensic" to salvation vs intrinsic. The Bible clearly teaches intrinsic relationship unto judgment to obtain.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The thief was not in a day when atonement had already been made. Atonement was not made until after Christ arose the third day and ascended to the holiest in Heaven.

At any rate, Jesus told the disciples at least 43 days after the thief died to BEGIN preaching repentance and remission of sins in His name at Jerusalem after the received the power from on high, which is Spirit Baptism. And they BEGAN preaching that message on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38. Why preach something else?

Luk 24:45-49 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures, (46) And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day: (47) And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning (It had never before been preached, but would be preached after Acts 2) at Jerusalem. (48) And ye are witnesses of these things. (49) And, behold, I send the promise of my Father upon you: but tarry ye in the city of Jerusalem, until ye be endued with power from on high.

Act 2:36-39 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ. (37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost. (39) For the promise is unto you, and to your children, and to all that are afar off, even as many as the Lord our God shall call.

I just preached this Sunday night and we had a wonderful baptism in Jesus' name! ON RESURRECTION SUNDAY! Woohoo!

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by mfblume

The thief was not in a day when atonement had already been made. Atonement was not made until after Christ arose the third day and ascended to the holiest in Heaven.

At any rate, Jesus told the disciples at least 43 days after the thief died to BEGIN preaching repentance and remission of sins in His name at Jerusalem after the received the power from on high, which is Spirit Baptism. And they BEGAN preaching that message on the day of Pentecost in Acts 2:38. Why preach something else?

Actually, forgiveness and remission of sins was done prior to the Acts account, or the 43-day timetable. Secondly, we agree that the atonement was eschatologically significant, and that the access through Jesus after his resurrection was established. At the same time, it is undeniable to reject that the thief on the cross was granted salvation by faith. Of course, justification by faith is the whole of our salvation-history, going back to Genesis.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Actually, forgiveness and remission of sins was done prior to the Acts account, or the 43-day timetable.

Maybe a shadow of it, but other than that, no.

Secondly, we agree that the atonement was eschatologically significant, and that the access through Jesus after his resurrection was established. At the same time, it is undeniable to reject that the thief on the cross was granted salvation by faith. Of course, justification by faith is the whole of our salvation-history, going back to Genesis.

One cannot be baptized into His death until after Christ had died and resurrected. All before the cross are saved by the same blood of Christ that occurred in time and space two thousand years ago. All had to show a faith that worked by way of a shadow dependent upon the cross in order to be saved by the atonement once it occurred. Such a shadow corresponds to our repentance and water baptism.