One cannot be baptized into His death until after Christ had died and resurrected. All before the cross are saved by the same blood of Christ that occurred in time and space two thousand years ago. All had to show a faith that worked by way of a shadow dependent upon the cross in order to be saved by the atonement once it occurred. Such a shadow corresponds to our repentance and water baptism.
So then, you're saying that baptism is NOT essential for salvation because:
"ALL before the cross are saved by the same blood of Christ..." and,
"All had to show a faith that worked by way of a shadow dependent upon the cross..."
They were all saved by faith in the coming Messiah. We today are saved by faith in what that Messiah did approximately 2,000 years ago.
Whew, got some catching up to do here! So many posts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais
Do we have a special dispensation for the thief? The Law couldn't save him (Hebrews 10:4), and he died (presumably) before Jesus rose from the dead and certainly before Jesus ascended into heaven 40 days after that...
Just how was Jesus able to keep His promise to the repentant thief?
Anything, that occurred before the cross is one bracket of its own, including law, promise and Adam and Eve. And the HEART is the important factor. I already said this, which should cover all issues of this topic, but when God sees the heart that has the kind of faith THAT WORKS, it is the faith that works that saves.
It's the same situation as in the case of the hypothetical picture of someone who repented and is intent on getting baptized in obedience and dies on the way to church. Their heart had faith that works. That heart's faith was going to do something. That one is saved. Same with the thief. Jesus saw the heart of that man that had faith that works. He was saved.
It's so simple, but like Mizpeh said, so many here are missing the obvious issue that faith saves, but it is faith that works that saves, and not any other kind of faith.
Quote:
Originally Posted by pelathais
So then, you're saying that baptism is NOT essential for salvation
No I am not. Baptism is part of salvation. I made that clear.
Quote:
because:
"ALL before the cross are saved by the same blood of Christ..." and,
"All had to show a faith that worked by way of a shadow dependent upon the cross..."
They were all saved by faith in the coming Messiah. We today are saved by faith in what that Messiah did approximately 2,000 years ago.
Right?
No, I said that anything required to be DONE before the cross was a shadow of repentance and baptism that is REQUIRED AFTER THE CROSS. And these are not done by way of works without faith, but rather faith that works.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Whew, got some catching up to do here! So many posts.
Anything, that occurred before the cross is one bracket of its own, including law, promise and Adam and Eve. And the HEART is the important factor. I already said this, which should cover all issues of this topic, but when God sees the heart that has the kind of faith THAT WORKS, it is the faith that works that saves.
It's the same situation as in the case of the hypothetical picture of someone who repented and is intent on getting baptized in obedience and dies on the way to church. Their heart had faith that works. That heart's faith was going to do something. That one is saved. Same with the thief. Jesus saw the heart of that man that had faith that works. He was saved.
That's great. I hope you can understand the consternation of some of us who have been in this thread from the beginning. Only now has the discussion been turned around and pointed back at Jesus Christ and His gift of salvation. There was a knee jerk reaction early on that demanded that this focus be removed from Christ and be placed upon our own efforts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
It's so simple, but like Mizpeh said, so many here are missing the obvious issue that faith saves, but it is faith that works that saves, and not any other kind of faith.
What other kind of "faith" could anyone possibly have in Jesus Christ but faith that saves?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
No I am not. Baptism is part of salvation. I made that clear.
But you said that "the guy who died in the car" was saved because of his faith. Baptism was not essential for him.
Quote:
pelathais' earlier post:
They were all saved by faith in the coming Messiah. We today are saved by faith in what that Messiah did approximately 2,000 years ago.
Right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mfblume
No, I said that anything required to be DONE before the cross was a shadow of repentance and baptism that is REQUIRED AFTER THE CROSS. And these are not done by way of works without faith, but rather faith that works.
We are NOT saved by faith in what the Messiah did approximately 2,000 years ago?
That's great. I hope you can understand the consternation of some of us who have been in this thread from the beginning. Only now has the discussion been turned around and pointed back at Jesus Christ and His gift of salvation. There was a knee jerk reaction early on that demanded that this focus be removed from Christ and be placed upon our own efforts.
What other kind of "faith" could anyone possibly have in Jesus Christ but faith that saves?
But you said that "the guy who died in the car" was saved because of his faith. Baptism was not essential for him.
We are NOT saved by faith in what the Messiah did approximately 2,000 years ago?
woo-boy! Gotta start all over again:
Jesus saves.
Any arguments?
Yes he does but salvation comes with requirements!
he will save the faithful.... pretty clear what scripture says just like Abraham. God gives mercy to the humble and resists the proud. hmmm sounds pretty conditional to me.
you don't understand Heb 5:9? Why do you fight scripture?
he will save the faithful.... pretty clear what scripture says just like Abraham. God gives mercy to the humble and resists the proud. hmmm sounds pretty conditional to me.
you don't understand Heb 5:9? Why do you fight scripture?
T.L., you're probably a pretty good guy when you don't feel that you have to act so ornery.
Why do you keep moving past the subject of this thread? This thread isn't about "Christian Discipleship" or "How to Follow In the Footsteps of Our Savior," "How to Persevere" nor "What To Do After You've Received the Free Gift."
The thread simply deals with what it was that enabled to be saved in the first place. It was the cross.
This may seem to be a trivial point to some people but quite a bit of the NT is devoted to doing just this thing. Paul frequently felt that he had to remind the recipients of his epistles of what it was that saved them in the first place.
That's the topic of this thread. Everything that follows is vital and we talk about it all the time, but why is it so hard to get back to the cross?
he will save the faithful.... pretty clear what scripture says just like Abraham. God gives mercy to the humble and resists the proud. hmmm sounds pretty conditional to me.
you don't understand Heb 5:9? Why do you fight scripture?
CONDITIONAL????????? Holy ......... Seriously. Jesus died because we couldn't freaking live up to the "terms of conditions." He made a way!! If it's conditional, and his side of the bargain is like an earned wage, you've missed the entire Pauline thought of salvation by faith. I thought we were farther along than this!!!!
Whew, got some catching up to do here! So many posts.
Anything, that occurred before the cross is one bracket of its own, including law, promise and Adam and Eve. And the HEART is the important factor. I already said this, which should cover all issues of this topic, but when God sees the heart that has the kind of faith THAT WORKS, it is the faith that works that saves.
It's the same situation as in the case of the hypothetical picture of someone who repented and is intent on getting baptized in obedience and dies on the way to church. Their heart had faith that works. That heart's faith was going to do something. That one is saved. Same with the thief. Jesus saw the heart of that man that had faith that works. He was saved.
It's so simple, but like Mizpeh said, so many here are missing the obvious issue that faith saves, but it is faith that works that saves, and not any other kind of faith.
No I am not. Baptism is part of salvation. I made that clear.
No, I said that anything required to be DONE before the cross was a shadow of repentance and baptism that is REQUIRED AFTER THE CROSS. And these are not done by way of works without faith, but rather faith that works.
If it's the intention of faith, wouldn't the mean God grants salvation at faith, whether or not the "works" have played themselves out? It's the heart-level faith that saves. Not just intentionality for specific commands, but a heart that trusts God... and if you trust God, you will also be willing to do anything for that God. You are saying basically what we are saying.
Hybrid Mode
