Finish that verse, Blume, and you tell me if his point was belief or some sort of doctrine on baptism?
Belief, Belief, Belief, the entire theme of St. John, of Jesus, of Paul... WHY is that so hard to understand.
I understand it. Without belief none of it is of any use. That is why I do not believe salvation by works.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
I understand it. Without belief none of it is of any use. That is why I do not believe salvation by works.
Isn't your salvation a result of the works of others? Someone told you about the Gospel. That's a work. Without it, you would not have been saved. Right?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Isn't your salvation a result of the works of others? Someone told you about the Gospel. That's a work. Without it, you would not have been saved. Right?
Wrong. The efforts of anyone, including me in my baptism, are not actions that directly make me righteous. Saying someone preached to me so that I could be saved, and that without such a person I would not be saved, is not salvation by works that render us righteous in and of themselves. Everyone here is missing the point that salvation by works means works in and of themselves renders us righteous.
This was the all-erring problem of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Acquire a knowledge of what is good and what is evil and utilize that knowledge to make yourself righteous.
Folks, do a study on righteousness and how it is acquired, and realize that salvation by works is directly contradictory to the truth of how we become righteous. Action is fine so long as it does not propose to make us righteous in and of itself. Until people learn that, they will never get the truth of the picture. It seems people against baptism as part of salvation simply refuse to deal with that all-important and all-determining issue, and they miss it everytime we speak of it.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Wrong. The efforts of anyone, including me in my baptism, are not actions that directly make me righteous. Saying someone preached to me so that I could be saved, and that without such a person I would not be saved, is not salvation by works that render us righteous in and of themselves. Everyone here is missing the point that salvation by works means works in and of themselves renders us righteous.
This was the all-erring problem of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Acquire a knowledge of what is good and what is evil and utilize that knowledge to make yourself righteous.
Folks, do a study on righteousness and how it is acquired, and realize that salvation by works is directly contradictory to the truth of how we become righteous. Action is fine so long as it does not propose to make us righteous in and of itself. Until people learn that, they will never get the truth of the picture. It seems people against baptism as part of salvation simply refuse to deal with that all-important and all-determining issue, and they miss it everytime we speak of it.
I understand what the usual meaning of the term "salvation by works" is. I didn't mean someone else's works made you righteous. But isn't it true that someone's works led to your hearing the Gospel? And isn't it true that, had those works not been done (or someone else's similar works), you would not have heard?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
I understand what the usual meaning of the term "salvation by works" is. I didn't mean someone else's works made you righteous. But isn't it true that someone's works led to your hearing the Gospel? And isn't it true that, had those works not been done (or someone else's similar works), you would not have heard?
Yes, indeed! But the only thing the bible is against is salvation by works as though those works make us righteous. And even in the cases of people preaching for me to be saved, it is really God directing it all.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Yes, indeed! But the only thing the bible is against is salvation by works as though those works make us righteous. And even in the cases of people preaching for me to be saved, it is really God directing it all.
Just sayin'.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Yes, indeed! But the only thing the bible is against is salvation by works as though those works make us righteous. And even in the cases of people preaching for me to be saved, it is really God directing it all.
So am I to understand, from this statement, that you believe works could help us obtain righteousness, but works don't make us righteous? I'm still a little stuck on your claim that you were able to speak in tongues (a necessary element of salvation according to you) because you "let go of sin."
So am I to understand, from this statement, that you believe works could help us obtain righteousness, but works don't make us righteous? I'm still a little stuck on your claim that you were able to speak in tongues (a necessary element of salvation according to you) because you "let go of sin."
see you almost are close... Our actions are either righteous/just or not. God judges/considers them as in Gen 15:6. He is the one that declares righteous which is a legal position of actions judged. When it comes to sins. God's justice declares the penalty to be satisfied or debt to be paid. It is not a acquittal. Gen 15:6 is not dealing with sin it is simply about justice done. which is a very clear aspect of how God deals with man.
Judgment & Justification In Early Judaism And The Apostle Paul by Chris VanLandingham
is a excellent and probably one of the most thorough books on this subject concerning this dealing with OT writings and New Testament era.
So am I to understand, from this statement, that you believe works could help us obtain righteousness, but works don't make us righteous?
Once again, a good study on the topic of righteousness in the bible, and how Israel was made to seek it more than anything through law, and how works cannot attain it, is required. I think too many have not done such a study.
Anyway, all that I am saying is that baptism, for example, is not an act that in and of itself makes us righteous. That is all. And try as one might, one cannot find a loophole out of this need for baptism after a statement made like that, since it removes the ONLY problem with any salvation by works activity. Salvation by works is doing activities that, in and of themselves, render us righteous without the work of God's grace involved as the only means of attaining righteousness.
And until everyone can realize that the mental and heart assent of repentance and faith are as much activities as is baptism, albeit baptism is physical and the others are inward, they will not get this point.
Righteousness is our ticket to glory. Law tried to get man to make himself righteous. God knew it would not work, but man needed to know that. And baptism is the same thing as repentance as far as purposes go. Repentance admits self is useless and could never attain righteousness. Baptism is the same. It is a baptism into death and a burial of the old man, since it admits self is so useless, that all that can be done with that old man is to have it die and put away for good. That is as far from salvation by works as is possible.
I kinda think folks do not even realize how baptism is indeed a putting away of the old man in death. We have so much of this foolish "outward show of an inward work" nonsense, which is not even in the bible, that people forget that Romans 6:3-6 teaches baptism is involved in uniting us to the death of Christ so that His death is considered our deaths, since the old man can not attain its own righteousness, and is worthy for nothing other than death!
This act of this "burial" and "death" of the old man is done in order for us to get to the place where God alone is the one getting the glory for granting us the gift of righteousness. I mean, one could get no further away from "salvation by works" than by rendering dead and burying the old man that might ever consider saving himself by his own works.
So the baptism does not make us righteous by any means! It slays the "us" that might ever think it can make itself righteous.
Put it this way. It is as though our hands are full with our own efforts to attain righteousness, and God is trying to place within those hands his righteousness. And until we empty our hands of our hopes and dreams and efforts to make ourselves righteous, God cannot give us righteousness. And we empty our hands BY BAPTISM AND REPENTANCE
Quote:
I'm still a little stuck on your claim that you were able to speak in tongues (a necessary element of salvation according to you) because you "let go of sin."
It's simple! Again, you agree repentance is a NECESSARY STEP along with the other non-admitted "step" of faith, making no one a one-stepper, so you should understand quite easily that unless one repents one cannot be saved or given righteousness or given any other gift from God! The Baptism of the Holy Ghost is a GIFT, as much as righteousness is. And if you can see how repentance is necessary in order to receive any gift from God, then you can understand that not letting go of sin would disallow God from giving me the GIFT of the Holy Ghost.
Don't try to find a flaw in my words, here. lol. Just hear what I am saying, for if you believe repentance is necessary for anything from God then you should know that "letting go of sin" is repentance, and I had not actually repented, which is why I was not being Spirit filled.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Wrong. The efforts of anyone, including me in my baptism, are not actions that directly make me righteous. Saying someone preached to me so that I could be saved, and that without such a person I would not be saved, is not salvation by works that render us righteous in and of themselves. Everyone here is missing the point that salvation by works means works in and of themselves renders us righteous.
This was the all-erring problem of the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil. Acquire a knowledge of what is good and what is evil and utilize that knowledge to make yourself righteous.
Folks, do a study on righteousness and how it is acquired, and realize that salvation by works is directly contradictory to the truth of how we become righteous. Action is fine so long as it does not propose to make us righteous in and of itself. Until people learn that, they will never get the truth of the picture. It seems people against baptism as part of salvation simply refuse to deal with that all-important and all-determining issue, and they miss it everytime we speak of it.
One could simply read the opening pages of this thread to find the study that you're suggesting.
Romans 4 and its summation in Romans 5:1, have been quoted so much that it threatened to bring down the Biblegateway server.
Changing your position as you've done is great! but don't chide with "everyone" because they didn't agree with you when you were on the other side of the fence.
Just sayin'. 
Hybrid Mode
