The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I just glanced through and copied and pasted these statements you made:




You are not even reading my words. lol.

Anyway, you are clearly not reading my words

You are not hearing this single most important part I have said again and again.

Did you get it this time?

Lol. brother. I hope this is not A.D.D. hindering you here.

Can you get it this time? lol.


I think the problem is, I AM reading what you write and that's what bothers me so much!

But Mike, tearing me down doesn't really do much to build up your position. The first time we talked you accused me of having a "Passive-Aggressive" personality disorder, so I suppose I'll take your verbal shots for what they're worth.

And, when there's more time to parse all those separated quotes, I'll answer.

Brother, I am grasping for words to get you to NOTE THE ALL IMPORTANT POINT I am making, that I honestly feel you are not getting, due to the way you are answering me. I intend no put-down. However, you are claiming I preach salvation by works, and do not even respond to my clarifications on what "salvation by works" actually is. And you continue to repeat that accusation. What else can a person do than ya you are not reading what I am saying?

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Brother, I am grasping for words to get you to NOTE THE ALL IMPORTANT POINT I am making, that I honestly feel you are not getting, due to the way you are answering me. I intend no put-down. However, you are claiming I preach salvation by works, and do not even respond to my clarifications on what "salvation by works" actually is. And you continue to repeat that accusation. What else can a person do than ya you are not reading what I am saying?

You don't intend the "put-downs" but you're sure as heck using them! I didn't like it at all when you called me "passive-aggressive" way back when and I thought it was uncalled for and unfair. Why insert that malarkey into a bible discussion??

Interestingly, I think it's similar now...you don't INTEND to say "Salvation by works" but that's what is there underneath what you're saying...in my opinion.

Tell me this...is there ANYONE in Christianity that preaches "Salvation by works?" Anyone? I would bet you think there is. So the next question would be....do THEY SAY they're preaching salvation by works? I've never heard anyone, in orthodox Christianity claim to preach "Salvation by works", as in, "Our works save us."

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

You don't intend the "put-downs" but you're sure as heck using them! I didn't like it at all when you called me "passive-aggressive" way back when and I thought it was uncalled for and unfair. Why insert that malarkey into a bible discussion??

Interestingly, I think it's similar now...you don't INTEND to say "Salvation by works" but that's what is there underneath what you're saying...in my opinion.

Tell me this...is there ANYONE in Christianity that preaches "Salvation by works?" Anyone? I would bet you think there is. So the next question would be....do THEY SAY they're preaching salvation by works? I've never heard anyone, in orthodox Christianity claim to preach "Salvation by works", as in, "Our works save us."

Yes there are. ROMAN CATHOLICS blatantly told me they are saved by works. You should read what they say about James 2.

the issue is far more complicated than you believe it, bro. It's far more than "you do something and you're saved," for you yourself believe you must repent to be saved. What is the difference? You refuse to say.

And man alive, I mentioned "passive aggression" ONCE, and you think of it everytime you read a post of mine. Ironically, obsessing over that is actually passive aggression

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Yes there are. ROMAN CATHOLICS blatantly told me they are saved by works. You should read what they say about James 2.

the issue is far more complicated than you believe it, bro. It's far more than "you do something and you're saved," for you yourself believe you must repent to be saved. What is the difference? You refuse to say.

And man alive, I mentioned "passive aggression" ONCE, and you think of it everytime you read a post of mine.

Speaking of not reading what one is saying.......I said, "In Orthodox Christianity". You're a smart guy and I think you're aware that Catholicism is NOT Orthodox Christianity.

So again, is there anyone in Orthodox Christianity that teaches "Salvation by works" in your opinion? Second, is there anyone in Orthodox Christianity who, themselves, claim to teach "Salvation by works"?

No, I only think of the "Passive-Aggressive" thing when you start putting me down again. When you do it, I just try to remember that it's part of your pattern and try to not to take it too seriously.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Speaking of not reading what one is saying.......I said, "In Orthodox Christianity". You're a smart guy and I think you're aware that Catholicism is NOT Orthodox Christianity.

So again, is there anyone in Orthodox Christianity that teaches "Salvation by works" in your opinion? Second, is there anyone in Orthodox Christianity who, themselves, claim to teach "Salvation by works"?

No, I only think of the "Passive-Aggressive" thing when you start putting me down again. When you do it, I just try to remember that it's part of your pattern and try to not to take it too seriously.

WOW... hmmm I would say "easter orthodox" would disagree with your view of works and they have been around much longer than your reformed brethren...

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Speaking of not reading what one is saying.......I said, "In Orthodox Christianity". You're a smart guy and I think you're aware that Catholicism is NOT Orthodox Christianity.

So again, is there anyone in Orthodox Christianity that teaches "Salvation by works" in your opinion? Second, is there anyone in Orthodox Christianity who, themselves, claim to teach "Salvation by works"?

Catholics are indeed considered orthodox. Not by me, of course. But neither do I consider Eastern Orthodox churches to be orthodox.

But you are missing the question. The issue is far more complicated than you believe it, bro. It's far more than "you do something and you're saved," for you yourself believe you must repent to be saved. What is the difference? You refuse to say.

No, I only think of the "Passive-Aggressive" thing when you start putting me down again. When you do it, I just try to remember that it's part of your pattern and try to not to take it too seriously.

Bro., you need to know that accusing me of something I detailingly explain is not what I believe, as though I never explained anything, is no different than your concern here. But did I say it's just your pattern, and murmur about it?

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Catholics are indeed considered orthodox. Not by me, of course. But neither do I consider Eastern Orthodox churches to be orthodox.

••This is a side issue, but who in the world considers Catholics to be a part of "Orthodox Christianity"?? I've never heard that in my life.

But you are missing the question. The issue is far more complicated than you believe it, bro. It's far more than "you do something and you're saved," for you yourself believe you must repent to be saved. What is the difference? You refuse to say.

••Yes, for you it's much more complicated. Whenever the legalistic ideals of man are added to the simple message of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, things get very complicated.

Bro., you need to know that accusing me of something I detailingly explain is not what I believe, as though I never explained anything, is no different than your concern here. But did I say it's just your pattern, and murmur about it?

••If my "accusing" is too strong, I'll just simply quote what you said:

"I personally know from experience that I sought the Spirit baptism for six months. The trouble was, that I knew I was not letting go of some sins, and when I let go of them I got the Spirit right away! I can only go by my experience. It is not hard. Letting go of sin may be what is hard." (Page 69, post 682)

I think that says it all. Mike there's NOTHING hard about getting saved. Jesus has done everything in our place, He did everything that was hard and now we walk freely in His grace. he bore the sins of the world, took the crushing blows of Calvary, and Gethsemane, so that we can simply believe and be saved.

Jesus said his "yoke is EASY and His burden is light." Mike, nothing about this is hard. It's been made very simple by the cross of Jesus Christ.

FURTHERMORE....it is the power of the Holy Spirit that enables us to rid ourselves of sinful habits. Galatians 5:16 tells us that we walk in the Spirit and the result is, we do not fulfill the desires of the flesh. You're telling me that you found power outside the Holy Spirit to rid yourself of sin. But in reality, the opposite is true. Christ fills us and in so doing, gives us the power to avoid sinful pitfalls.

[mfblume]

Bro notofworks,

Righteousness is a complex issue whether anyone agrees or not. I have studied it out and it took me a few years to get a handle on it, which is how I came out of legalism in the mid 80's.

It's the same idea as studying Romans. If you think Paul's words are easy, then why did Peter speak of Paul's words of righteousness and say they are hard to be understood and are therefore so often wrestled with?

Once I took to studying Paul, I realized Peter was right. You can believe Peter was wrong if you wish, though.

But righteousness is a complicated issue.

2Pe 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

If you think my few paragraphs are too much to read, you will be unable to study Paul's teachings on righteousness, for he writes and writes and writes about it.

I taught righteousness as soon as I started pastoring, and showing folks that we cannot do anything to merit righteousness. Immediately, people began misunderstanding me, just as they did Paul. I later learned from some awesome teachers that if a person is not commonly misunderstood, then they are probably not teaching the truth. Paul was so misunderstood that folks thought he meant Law was useless trash, and others thought he meant you can use righteousness as a cloak for sin. He had to always list clarifiers and disclaimers.

One brother mistook me as saying we do not need to live right after we are saved, and we do not have to pray and study the bible. He thought we do NOTHING according to my teaching and could not follow it. I explained to him that doing anything TO GET RIGHTEOUSNESS was the all-important difference. We do not live right in order to get righteous. We live right because we should align our lives to our position as being righteous.

I do not think he ever did get that.

No, righteousness is not a simple subject.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

••If my "accusing" is too strong, I'll just simply quote what you said:

"I personally know from experience that I sought the Spirit baptism for six months. The trouble was, that I knew I was not letting go of some sins, and when I let go of them I got the Spirit right away! I can only go by my experience. It is not hard. Letting go of sin may be what is hard." (Page 69, post 682)

I think that says it all. Mike there's NOTHING hard about getting saved.

Brother, lol, the way of a transgressor is hard. Not the way of salvation. I refused to acknowledge some sins as sins. I said that if something is wrong with what I am doing, then when God fills me with His Spirit He can tell me then. I had idols in my life. I refused to let them go.

And for you to take my words and claim I am legalistic is for you to say one does not need to get rid of idols in one's life in order for God to bless them.

Unfortunately, teaching people there is no need to let go of their idols, which is basically what you are saying to me since that was my problem, is an all too common trend in many religious circles today.

So, I think you may now better realize where I am coming from when I said what you quoted.

Jesus has done everything in our place, He did everything that was hard and now we walk freely in His grace. he bore the sins of the world, took the crushing blows of Calvary, and Gethsemane, so that we can simply believe and be saved.

He did not let go of our idols for us, so that we have no letting go to perform.

And baptism is no more a work than repentance, since it is how we approach His grace and receive from His grace. It does not EARN grace nor WORK for it. Baptism is no more a work for salvation than walking up to daddy and receiving a gift from him is a work to earn that gift. Baptism to me is just walking up to receive a gift. Walking to get a gift is not a work that earns a gift.

Jesus said his "yoke is EASY and His burden is light." Mike, nothing about this is hard. It's been made very simple by the cross of Jesus Christ.

I agree. But you distorted my words, for whatever reason, though I think unintentionally, and claimed I said something I never said. You misinterpreted what I meant. I meant that letting go of sin is losing your idols willingly, which I was not doing. Maybe the idolatry example can better show you what I mean.

FURTHERMORE....it is the power of the Holy Spirit that enables us to rid ourselves of sinful habits.

IF WE ARE WILLING.

Galatians 5:16 tells us that we walk in the Spirit and the result is, we do not fulfill the desires of the flesh. You're telling me that you found power outside the Holy Spirit to rid yourself of sin. But in reality, the opposite is true. Christ fills us and in so doing, gives us the power to avoid sinful pitfalls.

No, I am not telling you I had power outside the Spirit to rid myself of sin. The truth of the matter was that God had all the power I would ever need, but I WAS NOT WANTING THAT POWER to rid me of particular sins. My will was not in agreement with what God said was sin. Only when one ACKNOWLEDGES what God says is sin, will one ALLOW the power of God to rid it from us.

If you disagree with this, then we might as well agree to disagree, since I doubt we can ever agree on this in that case.