The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I did respond. I said I HAD NOT REALLY REPENTED, and that is why I could not get the Holy Ghost.



Then you do not understand what salvation by works really was when Paul condemned it. My opinion.



Then you preach salvation by works when you demand repentance. The way it has to be, bro. If not, why not?

...and how many people have you seen "Speak in tongues" without doing anything? Are you saying it's impossible for a person to "Speak in tongues" without "Turning"...repenting? And how many people "speak in tongues" for the first time and head straight out the door and live like the devil? What happened to their "Turn"? Or, maybe they didn't turn?

There are just way too many holes in your attempt to slither out of your original statement.

Repentance is not a "Work". It is simply an acceptance of God's place as leader of one's life. It is a turn. A "Work" is the action of good works in one's life, such as helping enough old ladies across the street, giving food to hungry people, working to eliminate sin from one's life....those are works. Turning to Christ and allowing Him to lead one's life is NOT a work. It is a decision and the trust to allow Christ to do the work!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Speaking of not reading what one is saying.......I said, "In Orthodox Christianity". You're a smart guy and I think you're aware that Catholicism is NOT Orthodox Christianity.

So again, is there anyone in Orthodox Christianity that teaches "Salvation by works" in your opinion? Second, is there anyone in Orthodox Christianity who, themselves, claim to teach "Salvation by works"?

Catholics are indeed considered orthodox. Not by me, of course. But neither do I consider Eastern Orthodox churches to be orthodox.

But you are missing the question. The issue is far more complicated than you believe it, bro. It's far more than "you do something and you're saved," for you yourself believe you must repent to be saved. What is the difference? You refuse to say.

No, I only think of the "Passive-Aggressive" thing when you start putting me down again. When you do it, I just try to remember that it's part of your pattern and try to not to take it too seriously.

Bro., you need to know that accusing me of something I detailingly explain is not what I believe, as though I never explained anything, is no different than your concern here. But did I say it's just your pattern, and murmur about it?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

...and how many people have you seen "Speak in tongues" without doing anything? Are you saying it's impossible for a person to "Speak in tongues" without "Turning"...repenting?

Yes!

And how many people "speak in tongues" for the first time and head straight out the door and live like the devil? What happened to their "Turn"? Or, maybe they didn't turn?

They turned back again.

Now, answer me. Do you believe people get the actual Holy Ghost baptism without ever having repented?

There are just way too many holes in your attempt to slither out of your original statement.

No, you are simply not getting my point.

For you to say salvation by works is not proposing that works in and of themselves make us righteous, then you are so far offbase in your thought about the issue, it makes our reference points too far apart to even communicate.

Repentance is not a "Work". It is simply an acceptance of God's place as leader of one's life. It is a turn.

Why is that not a work?

You make empty claims and do not prove them.

A "Work" is the action of good works in one's life, such as helping enough old ladies across the street, giving food to hungry people, working to eliminate sin from one's life....those are works.

You are oversimplifying the entire issue. What religious merit do those who accomplish such "works" as you listed have in the minds of the doers? I feel the answer will get you to my point.

Turning to Christ and allowing Him to lead one's life is NOT a work. It is a decision and the trust to allow Christ to do the work!

A decision is a work. Again, you seem to think that a physical action is more a work than a mental action. Bro., they are BOTH WORKS. WORKS are not wrong.

Titus 3:8 Faithful is the saying, and concerning these things I desire that thou affirm confidently, to the end that they who have believed God may be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men:

But the reason people think these things have salvational merit is because they think such things make them righteous in and of themselves. Until you see that, it is no wonder you don not understand how repentance and baptism are precisely the same sort of work.

[TheLegalist]

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him. ASV

Joh 3:36 Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life; whoever does not obey the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remains on him. ESV

John 3:36 "He who (A)believes in the Son has eternal life; but he who (B)does not obey the Son will not see life, but the wrath of God abides on him." NASB


Works are not simply forensic external evidence but intrinsic to OBTAINING eternal life. Obedience is synonymous with "belief" or more correctly "believing on" which is a continous aspect, not a isolate of point in time per Jesus.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Catholics are indeed considered orthodox. Not by me, of course. But neither do I consider Eastern Orthodox churches to be orthodox.

••This is a side issue, but who in the world considers Catholics to be a part of "Orthodox Christianity"?? I've never heard that in my life.

But you are missing the question. The issue is far more complicated than you believe it, bro. It's far more than "you do something and you're saved," for you yourself believe you must repent to be saved. What is the difference? You refuse to say.

••Yes, for you it's much more complicated. Whenever the legalistic ideals of man are added to the simple message of Jesus Christ and Him crucified, things get very complicated.

Bro., you need to know that accusing me of something I detailingly explain is not what I believe, as though I never explained anything, is no different than your concern here. But did I say it's just your pattern, and murmur about it?

••If my "accusing" is too strong, I'll just simply quote what you said:

"I personally know from experience that I sought the Spirit baptism for six months. The trouble was, that I knew I was not letting go of some sins, and when I let go of them I got the Spirit right away! I can only go by my experience. It is not hard. Letting go of sin may be what is hard." (Page 69, post 682)

I think that says it all. Mike there's NOTHING hard about getting saved. Jesus has done everything in our place, He did everything that was hard and now we walk freely in His grace. he bore the sins of the world, took the crushing blows of Calvary, and Gethsemane, so that we can simply believe and be saved.

Jesus said his "yoke is EASY and His burden is light." Mike, nothing about this is hard. It's been made very simple by the cross of Jesus Christ.

FURTHERMORE....it is the power of the Holy Spirit that enables us to rid ourselves of sinful habits. Galatians 5:16 tells us that we walk in the Spirit and the result is, we do not fulfill the desires of the flesh. You're telling me that you found power outside the Holy Spirit to rid yourself of sin. But in reality, the opposite is true. Christ fills us and in so doing, gives us the power to avoid sinful pitfalls.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Now, answer me. Do you believe people get the actual Holy Ghost baptism without ever having repented?

••I do see the Holy Ghost baptism the way you do. I follow the more literal statements of the bible that say I am filled with the Holy Spirit when I believe. Repentance and the gift of the Holy Spirit are one and the same. (I John 4:15, John 7:39, Ephesians 1:13)

No, you are simply not getting my point.

For you to say salvation by works is not proposing that works in and of themselves make us righteous, then you are so far offbase in your thought about the issue, it makes our reference points too far apart to even communicate.

Why is that not a work?

••Repentance is not a work. I think I've explained this already.

You make empty claims and do not prove them.

••You may wanna look in the mirror for that one!

You are oversimplifying the entire issue.

••Paul kept things very simple. He was determined to know nothing except Christ and Him crucified.

A decision is a work.

••No it's not. It is an acceptance of God's grace. Saying "yes" to God is NOT a work.

But the reason people think these things have salvational merit is because they think such things make them righteous in and of themselves. Until you see that, it is no wonder you don not understand how repentance and baptism are precisely the same sort of work.

We've gotten a bit off-track, but the original question that was raised in this discussion was, why does one "seek for the Holy Ghost" and not get it? In Luke 11:13, Jesus said the Holy Spirit would be given to everyone who asks. Are you telling me that someone might ask, and God might say, "No, you have sin in your life"? I don't see that provision in the promise of Jesus.

[Jason B]

Oh, great! 93 pages I'll never catch up. Why didn't I catch this thread earlier?

[Jeffrey]

Quick break. Check out the Romans thread regarding Jacob and Esau. I need to play "catch up" on this thread

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

From words like this, Pel, it looks like you are accusing me of baptismal regeneration. See what I mean?

You seem to infer here, for it is not totally clear what you are saying, that those who believe Jesus involved water baptism in "born of the water and of the Spirit" propose baptismal regeneration. The point actually is that SOME who actually DO believe baptismal regeneration see no place of faith in all of this. Yes, they use this verse, but they claim FAITH is not involved with baptism in this reference.

But those of us who believe this is indeed speaking of water baptism, and are not baptismal regenerationists, claim that this water baptism is useless without faith. We believe that our obedience to be baptized is the work that makes "faith that works" a present reality. Our faith includes belief that God actually does a circumcision of the heart while we are baptized in water. The action of baptism is not the saving element, though. This is what we have been trying to say over and over again. Baptism is just the inseparable work that comes along with the "faith that works".

It's honestly a bit difficult to pin you down on this - and I haven't really even concerned myself with hanging any kind of tag on you anyway.

However: If some one were to say that water baptism is "essential" to the New Birth, then they are at least a "baptismal regenerationalist" in part and maybe in whole, such as the Campbellite groups.

Campbellites hold to the idea that God imparts the Spirit at the time a believer is baptized. They of course don't see "tongues" as an evidence of this. They do hold to the idea though, that the Holy Spirit comes upon an individual at the time of water baptism. This is perhaps one of the more extreme examples of baptismal regenerationalism in the Protestant world.

The RCC teaches that a "grace" is given with each sacrament bestowed by the Church. Baptism being one of those sacraments, a "grace" is bestowed that covers original sin (and sins that are "past" is the person is an adult) and "seals" the individual into the Body of Christ. There is much more, but the RCC practice isn't completely equivalent to the Campbellite doctrine. The Holy Spirit is "passed on" in the RCC directly through the laying on of hands from an ordained bishop who claims a direct apostolic descent from Jesus Christ and His apostles. It's sort of like a relay race with the Spirit of God in place of the baton. (This is one reason many bishops felt compelled to tolerate pedophile priests - because they need to whole system of "hand offs" intact for the Church to exist in the next generation. But that's a different matter).

So, those who do insist upon water baptism as a component or as the "complete package" of the New Birth (like the Campbellites) are to varying degrees, "baptismal regenerationalists."

Where you stand is completely up to you.

[mfblume]

Bro notofworks,

Righteousness is a complex issue whether anyone agrees or not. I have studied it out and it took me a few years to get a handle on it, which is how I came out of legalism in the mid 80's.

It's the same idea as studying Romans. If you think Paul's words are easy, then why did Peter speak of Paul's words of righteousness and say they are hard to be understood and are therefore so often wrestled with?

Once I took to studying Paul, I realized Peter was right. You can believe Peter was wrong if you wish, though.

But righteousness is a complicated issue.

2Pe 3:15-16 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; (16) As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

If you think my few paragraphs are too much to read, you will be unable to study Paul's teachings on righteousness, for he writes and writes and writes about it.

I taught righteousness as soon as I started pastoring, and showing folks that we cannot do anything to merit righteousness. Immediately, people began misunderstanding me, just as they did Paul. I later learned from some awesome teachers that if a person is not commonly misunderstood, then they are probably not teaching the truth. Paul was so misunderstood that folks thought he meant Law was useless trash, and others thought he meant you can use righteousness as a cloak for sin. He had to always list clarifiers and disclaimers.

One brother mistook me as saying we do not need to live right after we are saved, and we do not have to pray and study the bible. He thought we do NOTHING according to my teaching and could not follow it. I explained to him that doing anything TO GET RIGHTEOUSNESS was the all-important difference. We do not live right in order to get righteous. We live right because we should align our lives to our position as being righteous.

I do not think he ever did get that.

No, righteousness is not a simple subject.