The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

I think this is the problem many have... God's righteousness toward us is seen in several ways. This righteousness that saves in the sense of what brought about salvation or the offering of it. It is not of "anything" we can do or did. Christ purchased salvation with his life so that he could "offer" it. Yet at the same time the "grace" or "offering" of God that was God's righteousness manifested toward us by which we are saved does not include the righteousness to obtain salvation. We are asked for a proper response to obtain.

Amen! Bravo, that's it!

ANY CONSCIOUS CHOICE made is actually a WORK whether folks admit it or not. Bias often blinds people to the obvious. Focus on the personal shows this when it is present. They'd sooner not admit error than know truth.

Repentance is a conscious choice that WE MAKE, not God. And there is nothing wrong with that. But the reason people refuse to call it a work is because they think ANY WORK is wrong, and not to be done. So they somehow reinvent the idea of repentance to dismiss it from a work, but actually use a synonym of what a work is and apply it to repentance, and claim they did not say "works"!

Baptism is no more a work of salvation than repentance is. Salvation by works means that God has nothing to do with GIVING US THE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. Righteousness is a gift! Earning something is working for something that is not a gift. And repentance and baptism BOTH do not earn righteousness, because if they did they would not require the cross to have occurred, and be efforts that, in themselves, God looks towards in order to see WHY He should PAY us righteousness.

Righteousness has been bought and paid for, alright. But by the cross alone, and not any baptism or repentance we exert. But you cannot take righteousness freely from the Lord IF THERE IS SOMETHING IN YOUR HANDS CALLED SIN. Notofworks will not acknowledge the "SOMETHING IN YOUR HANDS" example to see my real point. Whatever...

[mfblume]

Here is why righteousness needs to be studied.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

WHOA!, Lord. Pick me off the floor and explain that to me!

Rom 4:3-7 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

What does Paul mean by "works of righteousness"?

What does imputing righteousness without works mean?

Are works out the window? Evidently not.

Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Tit 3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Lookie at James:

Jas 2:17-24 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

People think James was right and Paul was wrong when they read James 2 and then compare that with Paul:

James 2:24 (24) ...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Paul said a lot about righteousness related to salvation, and works.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 8:3-4 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And someone said the issue of righteousness is not complicated.

What is complicated about it is that its relationship with works determines whether or not those works are exerted erringly.

People told me that works justify the believer according to James, but Paul said we are not justified by works.

People need to be able to reconcile James with Paul. There is no contradiction, when one realizes that James meant justifying OUR CLAIMS, not the states of ourselves for salvation, whereas Paul spoke of justifying the state of self for salvation, there is no contradiction.

When RIGHTEOUSNESS is an odd addition to the concept of salvation, a person NEEDS TO STUDY the issue of RIGHTEOUSNESS in the bible, and what place it has in relation to salvation, a little more. They never taught me THAT one in bible school. I wish they did! What embarrassment I experienced! Whew!

Still think it is not complex, notofworks? I am still trying to get a better handle on James.

[mfblume]

BUMP for notofworks

Originally Posted by mfblume

Here is why righteousness needs to be studied.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

WHOA!, Lord. Pick me off the floor and explain that to me!

Rom 4:3-7 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

What does Paul mean by "works of righteousness"?

What does imputing righteousness without works mean?

Are works out the window? Evidently not.

Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Tit 3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Lookie at James:

Jas 2:17-24 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

People think James was right and Paul was wrong when they read James 2 and then compare that with Paul:

James 2:24 (24) ...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Paul said a lot about righteousness related to salvation, and works.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 8:3-4 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And someone said the issue of righteousness is not complicated.

What is complicated about it is that its relationship with works determines whether or not those works are exerted erringly.

People told me that works justify the believer according to James, but Paul said we are not justified by works.

People need to be able to reconcile James with Paul. There is no contradiction, when one realizes that James meant justifying OUR CLAIMS, not the states of ourselves for salvation, whereas Paul spoke of justifying the state of self for salvation, there is no contradiction.

When RIGHTEOUSNESS is an odd addition to the concept of salvation, a person NEEDS TO STUDY the issue of RIGHTEOUSNESS in the bible, and what place it has in relation to salvation, a little more. They never taught me THAT one in bible school. I wish they did! What embarrassment I experienced! Whew!

Still think it is not complex, notofworks? I am still trying to get a better handle on James, too.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen! Bravo, that's it!

ANY CONSCIOUS CHOICE made is actually a WORK whether folks admit it or not. Bias often blinds people to the obvious. Focus on the personal shows this when it is present. They'd sooner not admit error than know truth.

Repentance is a conscious choice that WE MAKE, not God. And there is nothing wrong with that. But the reason people refuse to call it a work is because they think ANY WORK is wrong, and not to be done. So they somehow reinvent the idea of repentance to dismiss it from a work, but actually use a synonym of what a work is and apply it to repentance, and claim they did not say "works"!

Baptism is no more a work of salvation than repentance is. Salvation by works means that God has nothing to do with GIVING US THE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. Righteousness is a gift! Earning something is working for something that is not a gift. And repentance and baptism BOTH do not earn righteousness, because if they did they would not require the cross to have occurred, and be efforts that, in themselves, God looks towards in order to see WHY He should PAY us righteousness.

Righteousness has been bought and paid for, alright. But by the cross alone, and not any baptism or repentance we exert. But you cannot take righteousness freely from the Lord IF THERE IS SOMETHING IN YOUR HANDS CALLED SIN. Notofworks will not acknowledge the "SOMETHING IN YOUR HANDS" example to see my real point. Whatever...

You make a great argument for repentance being a work. However, faith or belief in Christ and what he did is not a work. Belief is not a choice. You could no more choose to cease believing in God than an atheist could choose to begin believing in God. Does this mean that an atheist can never begin believing in God or that a Christian can never cease believing in God? No. It simply means that they cannot choose to. Now a person can choose to either ignore the evidence that there is a God or ignore the evidence that there isn't a God, in which case they could be said to have chosen to beleive in God or not to. But in the case that a person is not just ignoring the evidence but hasn't seen or doesn't understand the evidence then that person has no choice of whether he will ever see that evidence or whether he will be able to understand that evidence.

[mfblume]

J,

Choice of any kind is a work. Anything done that God does not do instead of us is a work. Now, how that is related to righteousness is another thing. And we can choose to believe. I am no calvinist. We choose to believe the cross saves us or not.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

J,

Choice of any kind is a work. Anything done that God does not do instead of us is a work. Now, how that is related to righteousness is another thing. And we can choose to believe. I am no calvinist. We choose to believe the cross saves us or not.

Ephesians 2:9 (and many other verses) makes it clear that however we are saved, we are NOT saved by anything that is called "works" within the realm of NT theology.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Ephesians 2:9 (and many other verses) makes it clear that however we are saved, we are NOT saved by anything that is called "works" within the realm of NT theology.

AGAIN it is about SOURCE of salvation not that obedience is not needed to obtain eternal life. We cannot nor ever be our own source. He is the source of salvation to those who do his will.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,


Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Ephesians 2:9 (and many other verses) makes it clear that however we are saved, we are NOT saved by anything that is called "works" within the realm of NT theology.

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

1) what is the "grace" of God in v8?
2) What is not of my own doing?
3) v9 not a result of works.... ok what is not a result of works?

Answer 1) christ atonement was the favor shown for salvation and is the grace manifested.
Answer 2) the Grace or "source" of salvation. Notice he is talking about the source of atonement that can BRING or OFFER salvation. THAT IS NOT OF MY DOING!
Answer 3) the source or possibility of atonement/salvation is not of my own doing but Christ' perfect sacrifice is. My works are not the source!

How is the salvation realized FROM it's SOURCE! FAITH which is a conintous sense and is based upon knowledge of what is required or Word given which DEFINES IT! Faith is a simple word used FOR a BROAD CONTEXT of application!

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

Eph 2:8 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God,

Eph 2:9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

1) what is the "grace" of God in v8?
2) What is not of my own doing?
3) v9 not a result of works.... ok what is not a result of works?

Answer 1) christ atonement was the favor shown for salvation and is the grace manifested.
Answer 2) the Grace or "source" of salvation. Notice he is talking about the source of atonement that can BRING or OFFER salvation. THAT IS NOT OF MY DOING!
Answer 3) the source or possibility of atonement/salvation is not of my own doing but Christ' perfect sacrifice is. My works are not the source!

How is the salvation realized FROM it's SOURCE! FAITH which is a conintous sense and is based upon knowledge of what is required or Word given which DEFINES IT! Faith is a simple word used FOR a BROAD CONTEXT of application!

You know, I agree 100% with what I think you've said, however could you restate that last part (bolded above)?

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by pelathais

You know, I agree 100% with what I think you've said, however could you restate that last part (bolded above)?

Saying we are saved by faith simply is a short form for a lot larger context.

Am I simply saved by mental assent? No!
Am I saved by simply being baptized? No!
Am I saved by speaking in tongues? No!
Am I saved by trusting in him? Yes!

Why does the answer change expecially between "mental assent" and "trust"?

Because trust observes and controls a much larger view of what is needed. Thus Faith which is trust does the same thing. God says he that believes will never die! Yes, this is true but the context is not mental assent but a continous aspect of knowing the will of God and doing. What is the initial aspect and context of faith. JEsus died and rose again! Does that save me? No! Knowing and simply believing and agreeing that happened does not do ONE THING for salvation. It does not bring me into covenant nor is his blood realized toward me. Faith is contextual and based on the Word known UNTO receive something. How do we receive by faith. Repent(turn) and be baptized(be united) everyone of you in the name of Jesus Christ FOR the remission of sins... Remission is not simply not just about forgiveness but the cutting away of that which we are attached. (old man of death) As we now are made anew by coming for unto a new purpose or in this case new covenant and servanthood. I place my trust in God's working BY FAITH at baptism to be united in covenant. That is teh context of faith UNTO covenant.

Now does baptism in itself save me completely? NO! Why? Faith is a broader context than initial entry INTO covenant. It's about doing the will of God and abiding by the terms of the covenant to obtain. Thus he is the source/mediator/author/administrator of the covenant/salvation to those who obey. Thus to abide in covenant is to be in agreement with the contract. Soem would say at peace with it or on good terms which is realized by faith.


Note added... Abraham "belief" in Gen 15:6 is not about simply mental assent or he is saying ok God great. Abraham had ALREADY MOVED IN TRUST which was RISK! simply abraham believing that this is true is the very essence of mental assent. IT DOES NOT JUSTIFY! Which is James point of "fulfilled" was realized in Gen 15:6 concerning Abraham "believed" at the offering of Isaac. Thus "faith" in Gen 15:6 is a broad context not just the moment in time. Paul is still correct but smaller in scope and point concerning circumcision and is pointing to the fact of believed as being realized before Gen 17. Which is true read the following verses after Gen 15:6 God goes into covenant with Abraham as he asks what must I do to obtain his land promise. Thus the outlook of "believed" in Gen 15:6 includes the proceding verses all the way to Gen 22. Abraham was considered righteous BEFORE Gen 15:6 even.

gotta go sorry... will discuss later. Have a good one!