The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Wow.


Well, since you're such a teacher, I'm sure you understand that the word "and" is a conjunction when ministries are named in Ephesians...."Pastors AND teachers."

I'm a pastor and teacher.

But whichever, I hear the smugness in your statement. I've acknowledged that you know MORE about the bible than I. But I haven't acknowledged that you understand it better.

Simply knowing the bible's content doesn't make one a great teacher. Just ask Harold Camping.

If you're going to weave righteousness and salvation together and claim that salvation is a hard thing, or that walking away from sin is a hard thing and only then can we be saved, then I don't think you understand the bible, and specifically, Calvary, as much as you know the bible.

It's just you said, "Are you equivocating salvation and righteousness?". Says a lot, bro.

But at any rate, chats like this always get away from the issue and become personally oriented. Don't let that happen. It's not a competition thing. The issue if passive aggression was tongue in cheek to begin with, as well. Let the personal side go, bro.

Let's reason together. Self is not that important.

We can debate on what difference a four-fold or five-fold ministry concept is. But even that is not the issue.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Salvation is only gained when God gives us righteousness. I thought we all knew that!

Well depends on what is meant as notofworks clearly has a totaly different view. God giving "righteousness" is more correctly termed giving "justice" or having "justice done." We only have access through the blood of Christ for justice done toward sin. Which we only can have access by faith which is our reliance and turning from sin to holiness for forgiveness through Jesus Christ. Eze 18 same principle even now.

No, it is not an easy theology. Again, ask Peter.

yep... Paul is very confusing TO PEOPLE'S DESTRUCTION!

Bro., our ticket to glory is righteousness. Gaining righteousness is salvation. It's a very basic Bible concept.

AMEN AMEN AMEN!

BUT AGAIN, I write so much since you have been known to think I once said tongues is righteousness. I write so much to avoid seeing you mistaken my thoughts. really.

blows me away how something God does is considered a work of ours that we expect him to do. LOL!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

I think this is the problem many have... God's righteousness toward us is seen in several ways. This righteousness that saves in the sense of what brought about salvation or the offering of it. It is not of "anything" we can do or did. Christ purchased salvation with his life so that he could "offer" it. Yet at the same time the "grace" or "offering" of God that was God's righteousness manifested toward us by which we are saved does not include the righteousness to obtain salvation. We are asked for a proper response to obtain.

Amen! Bravo, that's it!

ANY CONSCIOUS CHOICE made is actually a WORK whether folks admit it or not. Bias often blinds people to the obvious. Focus on the personal shows this when it is present. They'd sooner not admit error than know truth.

Repentance is a conscious choice that WE MAKE, not God. And there is nothing wrong with that. But the reason people refuse to call it a work is because they think ANY WORK is wrong, and not to be done. So they somehow reinvent the idea of repentance to dismiss it from a work, but actually use a synonym of what a work is and apply it to repentance, and claim they did not say "works"!

Baptism is no more a work of salvation than repentance is. Salvation by works means that God has nothing to do with GIVING US THE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. Righteousness is a gift! Earning something is working for something that is not a gift. And repentance and baptism BOTH do not earn righteousness, because if they did they would not require the cross to have occurred, and be efforts that, in themselves, God looks towards in order to see WHY He should PAY us righteousness.

Righteousness has been bought and paid for, alright. But by the cross alone, and not any baptism or repentance we exert. But you cannot take righteousness freely from the Lord IF THERE IS SOMETHING IN YOUR HANDS CALLED SIN. Notofworks will not acknowledge the "SOMETHING IN YOUR HANDS" example to see my real point. Whatever...

[mfblume]

Here is why righteousness needs to be studied.

Mat 5:20 For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

WHOA!, Lord. Pick me off the floor and explain that to me!

Rom 4:3-7 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. (4) Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. (5) But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (6) Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works, (7) Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Tit 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

What does Paul mean by "works of righteousness"?

What does imputing righteousness without works mean?

Are works out the window? Evidently not.

Tit 3:8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men.

Tit 3:14 And let ours also learn to maintain good works for necessary uses, that they be not unfruitful.

Lookie at James:

Jas 2:17-24 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. (18) Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. (19) Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. (20) But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? (21) Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? (22) Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? (23) And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. (24) Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

People think James was right and Paul was wrong when they read James 2 and then compare that with Paul:

James 2:24 (24) ...Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Paul said a lot about righteousness related to salvation, and works.

Rom 9:31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Rom 9:32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;

Eph 2:8-9 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (9) Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Rom 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

Rom 8:3-4 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: (4) That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

And someone said the issue of righteousness is not complicated.

What is complicated about it is that its relationship with works determines whether or not those works are exerted erringly.

People told me that works justify the believer according to James, but Paul said we are not justified by works.

People need to be able to reconcile James with Paul. There is no contradiction, when one realizes that James meant justifying OUR CLAIMS, not the states of ourselves for salvation, whereas Paul spoke of justifying the state of self for salvation, there is no contradiction.

When RIGHTEOUSNESS is an odd addition to the concept of salvation, a person NEEDS TO STUDY the issue of RIGHTEOUSNESS in the bible, and what place it has in relation to salvation, a little more. They never taught me THAT one in bible school. I wish they did! What embarrassment I experienced! Whew!

Still think it is not complex, notofworks? I am still trying to get a better handle on James.

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Amen! Bravo, that's it!

ANY CONSCIOUS CHOICE made is actually a WORK whether folks admit it or not. Bias often blinds people to the obvious. Focus on the personal shows this when it is present. They'd sooner not admit error than know truth.

Repentance is a conscious choice that WE MAKE, not God. And there is nothing wrong with that. But the reason people refuse to call it a work is because they think ANY WORK is wrong, and not to be done. So they somehow reinvent the idea of repentance to dismiss it from a work, but actually use a synonym of what a work is and apply it to repentance, and claim they did not say "works"!

Baptism is no more a work of salvation than repentance is. Salvation by works means that God has nothing to do with GIVING US THE GIFT OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. Righteousness is a gift! Earning something is working for something that is not a gift. And repentance and baptism BOTH do not earn righteousness, because if they did they would not require the cross to have occurred, and be efforts that, in themselves, God looks towards in order to see WHY He should PAY us righteousness.

Righteousness has been bought and paid for, alright. But by the cross alone, and not any baptism or repentance we exert. But you cannot take righteousness freely from the Lord IF THERE IS SOMETHING IN YOUR HANDS CALLED SIN. Notofworks will not acknowledge the "SOMETHING IN YOUR HANDS" example to see my real point. Whatever...

You make a great argument for repentance being a work. However, faith or belief in Christ and what he did is not a work. Belief is not a choice. You could no more choose to cease believing in God than an atheist could choose to begin believing in God. Does this mean that an atheist can never begin believing in God or that a Christian can never cease believing in God? No. It simply means that they cannot choose to. Now a person can choose to either ignore the evidence that there is a God or ignore the evidence that there isn't a God, in which case they could be said to have chosen to beleive in God or not to. But in the case that a person is not just ignoring the evidence but hasn't seen or doesn't understand the evidence then that person has no choice of whether he will ever see that evidence or whether he will be able to understand that evidence.

[mfblume]

J,

Choice of any kind is a work. Anything done that God does not do instead of us is a work. Now, how that is related to righteousness is another thing. And we can choose to believe. I am no calvinist. We choose to believe the cross saves us or not.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Thanks for your clarification. I honestly thought you were slurring me with accusations of catholic baptismal doctrine.

But I personally disagree entirely with your definition of what baptismal regeneration involves. And to prove it to you, which may throw another wrench altogether in your assessment of my thoughts... (Whatever... matters not to me.) let me say that my concept of baptism as part of salvation involves the all-important element of FAITH THAT WORKS. And I believe this so strongly, that if someone repented and agreed to be baptized, indicating to God a real and present "FAITH THAT WORKS" (God knows the intents of the heart), and such a person DIED before getting baptized, THAT PERSON IS SAVED.

Yes, I remember your "guy who dies in the car" analogy now.

Originally Posted by mfblume

And before you throw out a huge, YOU ARE A ONE STEPPER (!!) accusation, let me say that if the person DID NOT DIE and DOES NOT GET BAPTIZED, they are not saved. They did not have the OBEDIENT HEART of FAITH THAT WORKS. It is the HEART INTENT that shows God if the person has FAITH THAT WORKS. And since God saw the heart fully ready to obey, that shows the "faith that works" was indeed present in such a life.

Why does agreement have to be an "accusation?"

Originally Posted by mfblume

And let me give another scenario. I always leave these things up to God and leave Him to judge the issue when dealing with gray areas that the Word does not talk about, but my best educated guess would be that if someone never had anyone tell them about baptism, and truly learned of Jesus and the true concept of how the work of the cross saves, and genuinely repented, not getting baptized (totally due to lack of awareness of it), God knows if their heart WOULD GET BAPTIZED SHOULD THEY LEARN OF IT, they are saved if they have the heart to indeed get baptized had they learned of it.


Now, try to chew that one up and spit it out.

Say, for example, Apollos and the disciples of John? We don't know at what point they "dropped out" of the action that was going down in Israel at the time; but let's say John had communicated enough to them that they understood the coming Messiah was "The Lamb of God" who takes away the sin of the world..." Obviously whatever experience with water baptism that they had would be irrelevant to entering into the Christian community (I say this because Paul would later rebaptize them). So, they were "saved" - at least from the penalty of sin by their belief and repentance. If anyone had died in the car on the way to Ephesus, their eternal life was still secure?

Originally Posted by mfblume

I think you agree, but the issue is far more complicated than good men like notofworks think it is.

People can throw around, "Yeah, but if God saw they WOULD get baptized, He would not allow them to die," or "God would send someone to a heart whom He knew would get baptized had they known of it." But I am not dealing with those sorts of hypotheticals, but the hypotheticals that concern the state of the heart and how God sees it in relation to the works that faith produces. I do not believe an iota of baptismal regeneration because it is done in that concept in order to to create faith.

There is an element of predestination to all of our lives. Whoever is going to be saved is already saved in the foreknowledge of God. None of us will show up at the Supper and surprise our Host with our presence.

"Whoa! Mike and Pel made it?" says the Almighty. "I didn't see that one coming..."

I don't envision such a scene. Instead, I see a welcome prepared for our expected arrival. "Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world!" Matthew 25:34.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

J,

Choice of any kind is a work. Anything done that God does not do instead of us is a work. Now, how that is related to righteousness is another thing. And we can choose to believe. I am no calvinist. We choose to believe the cross saves us or not.

Ephesians 2:9 (and many other verses) makes it clear that however we are saved, we are NOT saved by anything that is called "works" within the realm of NT theology.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by revrandy

I'm thankful I repented of my sins, was baptized in Jesus Name and was filled with the Holy Ghost with the evidence of speaking in tongues...like the thousands who have had the same experience beginning at the day of Pentecost until now...

Can you name one that had that experiance between the years 200 A.D. and 1900 A.D.?

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Ephesians 2:9 (and many other verses) makes it clear that however we are saved, we are NOT saved by anything that is called "works" within the realm of NT theology.

AGAIN it is about SOURCE of salvation not that obedience is not needed to obtain eternal life. We cannot nor ever be our own source. He is the source of salvation to those who do his will.

Heb 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,


Rev 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

Joh 3:36 He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him