The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Jeff, your response for the most part is more of the same. Just admit it, you and I don't know and much of what you say is assumed.

My referral to Hell is the Eternal Damnation spoken of in the New Testament. I've studied Scripture intensely for over 30 years, and Eternal Fire, burning the lost for Eternity is not found in the Old Testament.

This is an important fact that we cannot, nor must not, ignore. This unseen place of doom has the Catholic Church written all over it and appears to be "More of the same". Just accept it because "It is Written". Forget the proof and just have blind Faith.

Give me a chance... ha. Sheesh.

Not to discount your questions, but is this a current crisis you are in? I've read words from you in the past that propped you as just as much a fundamentalist stooge as I

So let me ask you then... what's your answer? What's your solution to this crisis here?

The question is not what I don't know, it's what I do know. This topic can't be handled universally, to be fair. If you want to discuss the existence of God, which I can't prove to you, but which he has proven to me, that's a place to start. If you want me to discuss the credibility of the Bible, we can do that as well. I'll admit some vulnerabilities in my position, and admit to even some holes, but at the end of the day there's enough evidence that leads me to believe. If we want to talk about Jesus and if he is who he claimed, that's a starting point (and a great one).

So... I will actually agree with you. I don't know! But I am persuaded, and persuaded by cognitive evidence, by my heart and soul and by empirical, existential means.

So... if you want to talk about Hell and it's validity in the scriptures, that's a GREAT discussion. But I kindly ask you to start a new thread for it. I'll chip in however I can. At the end of the day, I won't answer every lingering doubt. Neither will you or anyone else. We are all fellow men on a journey through this. I'm not afraid of your questions or doubt, because I have and had my own. But... I believe! Not with cognitive dissonance either. I fully believe in the most essential of cases. I am persuaded by others, and have doubt about others. There's room for us all. Imagine that. We don't have to have it all figured out.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Jeffrey

Give me a chance... ha. Sheesh.

Not to discount your questions, but is this a current crisis you are in? I've read words from you in the past that propped you as just as much a fundamentalist stooge as I

So let me ask you then... what's your answer? What's your solution to this crisis here?

The question is not what I don't know, it's what I do know. This topic can't be handled universally, to be fair. If you want to discuss the existence of God, which I can't prove to you, but which he has proven to me, that's a place to start. If you want me to discuss the credibility of the Bible, we can do that as well. I'll admit some vulnerabilities in my position, and admit to even some holes, but at the end of the day there's enough evidence that leads me to believe. If we want to talk about Jesus and if he is who he claimed, that's a starting point (and a great one).

So... I will actually agree with you. I don't know! But I am persuaded, and persuaded by cognitive evidence, by my heart and soul and by empirical, existential means.

So... if you want to talk about Hell and it's validity in the scriptures, that's a GREAT discussion. But I kindly ask you to start a new thread for it. I'll chip in however I can. At the end of the day, I won't answer every lingering doubt. Neither will you or anyone else. We are all fellow men on a journey through this. I'm not afraid of your questions or doubt, because I have and had my own. But... I believe! Not with cognitive dissonance either. I fully believe in the most essential of cases. I am persuaded by others, and have doubt about others. There's room for us all. Imagine that. We don't have to have it all figured out.

Awesome post! I'll revisit this tomorrow. It's been one long day. LOL

Again, many great thoughts here, worthy of response.

NFS

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

Awesome post! I'll revisit this tomorrow. It's been one long day. LOL

Again, many great thoughts here, worthy of response.

NFS

I, for one, would be interested in your "hell thoughts", for this is a troubling subject for me, personally. As for me, I don't care where you talk about it...here or its own thread...but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts concerning hell AND heaven and their differentiating concepts in the Testaments.

Jeffrey's points are well-spoken and completely valid...we can't "prove" but we can "believe" and ultimately, that's what we've chosen to do. Yes, I have personal experiences that prove God completely to me.

I know this may irk some of the bible-thumpers, but the bible doesn't prove God to me. It confirms it. But with the bible's confirmation of God, come the verses that make me scratch my head.

NFS, you're one here who seems to type out very well my heart...my heart that was unable to properly verbalize it. So I look forward to hearing what you have to say.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I, for one, would be interested in your "hell thoughts", for this is a troubling subject for me, personally. As for me, I don't care where you talk about it...here or its own thread...but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts concerning hell AND heaven and their differentiating concepts in the Testaments.

Jeffrey's points are well-spoken and completely valid...we can't "prove" but we can "believe" and ultimately, that's what we've chosen to do. Yes, I have personal experiences that prove God completely to me.

I know this may irk some of the bible-thumpers, but the bible doesn't prove God to me. It confirms it. But with the bible's confirmation of God, come the verses that make me scratch my head.

NFS, you're one here who seems to type out very well my heart...my heart that was unable to properly verbalize it. So I look forward to hearing what you have to say.

NOW and Jeff,

I've debated the Hell issue thoroughly and it appears to me, somewhere within the realm of translating, copying, and the Religious getting their dirty little fingers upon Scripture, we now have this unfathomable place of torment for all who choose another "Way" or plan of Salvation. Of course, this depends on what Church you go to.

Think about it; if you remove Hell from the Plan of Salvation, what happens?

1. A person no longer follows the idea or plan of redemption because of the consequence. This is HUGE! So many are afraid to question or change because Hell awaits those who do. So, Faith actually becomes bondage. A prison of fear.

2. The heart of man/woman would approach God from an entirely different perspective. The preacher could no longer use this "Heavy" to keep the sheep under submission, and, we would no longer tell others that "Unless you repent, you will BURN". I see this as an antidote to our concept and Faith in God. People would begin to develop a loving relationship with God based upon the Family structure that we can see. For instance, how can we relate to a Father that torches His very own Creation, not for one day, but forever? We can't, so the distance between us and the Lord grows because that's the only way we accept Hell and its ferocity.

3. Life, love, and compassion for people would change. No longer would backsliders be considered doomed. Hope becomes more real and honest because deep down we know, all fail, some at the point of death. WE don't use the unseen dimensions to inflict fear, releasing us from manipulating people which is absolute freedom. We stop the torturous mind games, and begin to base our love for God on REAL LIFE. What we can see.

When Hell is in the equation, we are WAY more judgmental. Those "SINNERS" are heading for what they deserve. Notice, the extreme Religions and power hungry cults will pound the pulpit with Hell Fire. Obey or burn. Fear is the permeating result of this place, and the perfect ploy to program our minds to NEVER question.

IMO, Hell puts God in not only a bad light, but an abusive one. As a father, I would never send my children to a place where they would burn for eternity, no matter what they did. This life is tough, and many things can come our way that might lead us astray. Human beings are weak, and the Church is not exempt from weak people. Man gets into trouble on every level of life, and His only Hope is mercy from a Creator who see's clearly that we all fail, cry, and wish for a body that can't be tempted.

I see on this Forum debate after debate on subjects you would think would be concluded by now. But man will argue till he dies, from politics to Religion, where our culture molds us into individuals that are unique and different. It really makes me laugh when we say, "God is not the Author of confusion", yet we are all confused about our Faith. To me the reason for the confusion is simple; we can't let go of the "Unseen". As long as the unseen is documented as a fact, the arguing will never cease because how can we prove what we can't see, feel or touch.

As far as Scripture is concerned, many things MUST be considered when talking about Hell. Like I’ve said, Eternal Damnation is NOT in the Old Testament, PERIOD. If God wanted the World to know that they are going to Hell, the Book of Genesis would have clearly pointed this out. Also, none of the original manuscripts of the New Testament exist. They are ALL copies, written in Greek, the official language of Rome during all this “Translating” and the development of the Catholic Church.

I’m so deeply bothered by the fact that we are expected to believe in extreme and diabololical things that we can’t see. If God wanted this to be so, it would seem apparent that proof of such places could be validated somehow. We are fallible enough with what we can see, let alone with Worlds we can’t.

An answer to this crisis? Not sure I have one. One thing that has helped me with understanding is to simply validate by experience. Be more fact oriented. If I’m going to call God my Father, how do I see and feel about this role in life? If we are His Children, how do I love and care for my own children? To be honest, developing a relationship with Someone I can’t see, touch, or talk to is more than difficult. But when I hold my wife tightly when she is hurting, or we spend an evening under candlelight, I try with everything that is inside of me to think of God.

Hell makes absolutely no sense, and if God is all knowing, to allow man to populate this World so he can simply die within a few years and then spend eternity screaming in torment is beyond crazy. Hell just doesn’t fit, and I think we need to admit that.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by NotforSale

NOW and Jeff,

I've debated the Hell issue thoroughly and it appears to me, somewhere within the realm of translating, copying, and the Religious getting their dirty little fingers upon Scripture, we now have this unfathomable place of torment for all who choose another "Way" or plan of Salvation. Of course, this depends on what Church you go to.

Think about it; if you remove Hell from the Plan of Salvation, what happens?

1. A person no longer follows the idea or plan of redemption because of the consequence. This is HUGE! So many are afraid to question or change because Hell awaits those who do. So, Faith actually becomes bondage. A prison of fear.

2. The heart of man/woman would approach God from an entirely different perspective. The preacher could no longer use this "Heavy" to keep the sheep under submission, and, we would no longer tell others that "Unless you repent, you will BURN". I see this as an antidote to our concept and Faith in God. People would begin to develop a loving relationship with God based upon the Family structure that we can see. For instance, how can we relate to a Father that torches His very own Creation, not for one day, but forever? We can't, so the distance between us and the Lord grows because that's the only way we accept Hell and its ferocity.

3. Life, love, and compassion for people would change. No longer would backsliders be considered doomed. Hope becomes more real and honest because deep down we know, all fail, some at the point of death. WE don't use the unseen dimensions to inflict fear, releasing us from manipulating people which is absolute freedom. We stop the torturous mind games, and begin to base our love for God on REAL LIFE. What we can see.

When Hell is in the equation, we are WAY more judgmental. Those "SINNERS" are heading for what they deserve. Notice, the extreme Religions and power hungry cults will pound the pulpit with Hell Fire. Obey or burn. Fear is the permeating result of this place, and the perfect ploy to program our minds to NEVER question.

IMO, Hell puts God in not only a bad light, but an abusive one. As a father, I would never send my children to a place where they would burn for eternity, no matter what they did. This life is tough, and many things can come our way that might lead us astray. Human beings are weak, and the Church is not exempt from weak people. Man gets into trouble on every level of life, and His only Hope is mercy from a Creator who see's clearly that we all fail, cry, and wish for a body that can't be tempted.

I see on this Forum debate after debate on subjects you would think would be concluded by now. But man will argue till he dies, from politics to Religion, where our culture molds us into individuals that are unique and different. It really makes me laugh when we say, "God is not the Author of confusion", yet we are all confused about our Faith. To me the reason for the confusion is simple; we can't let go of the "Unseen". As long as the unseen is documented as a fact, the arguing will never cease because how can we prove what we can't see, feel or touch.

As far as Scripture is concerned, many things MUST be considered when talking about Hell. Like I’ve said, Eternal Damnation is NOT in the Old Testament, PERIOD. If God wanted the World to know that they are going to Hell, the Book of Genesis would have clearly pointed this out. Also, none of the original manuscripts of the New Testament exist. They are ALL copies, written in Greek, the official language of Rome during all this “Translating” and the development of the Catholic Church.

I’m so deeply bothered by the fact that we are expected to believe in extreme and diabololical things that we can’t see. If God wanted this to be so, it would seem apparent that proof of such places could be validated somehow. We are fallible enough with what we can see, let alone with Worlds we can’t.

An answer to this crisis? Not sure I have one. One thing that has helped me with understanding is to simply validate by experience. Be more fact oriented. If I’m going to call God my Father, how do I see and feel about this role in life? If we are His Children, how do I love and care for my own children? To be honest, developing a relationship with Someone I can’t see, touch, or talk to is more than difficult. But when I hold my wife tightly when she is hurting, or we spend an evening under candlelight, I try with everything that is inside of me to think of God.

Hell makes absolutely no sense, and if God is all knowing, to allow man to populate this World so he can simply die within a few years and then spend eternity screaming in torment is beyond crazy. Hell just doesn’t fit, and I think we need to admit that.

VERY informative. You are a great resource for reason and study. Hell is a great struggle for me and I despise the years of childhood that I would end every single day with the bedtime prayer, "...and God, please don't let me die and go to hell". Being liberated from that emotional dagger radically changed my life. "Scribal additions" MUST be considered when we're being honest about our bible. They're mostly likely there. Now, did God want them added? We could debate that, I suppose.

I know this....I DO NOT want a church full of people who are there only because they don't want to go to hell. They'll never reproduce and evangelize and will never fulfill their purpose which was described greatly when Jesus said, "As the Father has sent me, so I send you."

Thanks for risking the stating of your beliefs. They're certainly not status-quo beliefs.

[Jeffrey]

Originally Posted by notofworks

I, for one, would be interested in your "hell thoughts", for this is a troubling subject for me, personally. As for me, I don't care where you talk about it...here or its own thread...but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts concerning hell AND heaven and their differentiating concepts in the Testaments.

Jeffrey's points are well-spoken and completely valid...we can't "prove" but we can "believe" and ultimately, that's what we've chosen to do. Yes, I have personal experiences that prove God completely to me.

I know this may irk some of the bible-thumpers, but the bible doesn't prove God to me. It confirms it. But with the bible's confirmation of God, come the verses that make me scratch my head.

NFS, you're one here who seems to type out very well my heart...my heart that was unable to properly verbalize it. So I look forward to hearing what you have to say.

Yes. Because the Bible isn't a science book. It's not about "proving," it's about sharing the Story of a God who interacted with His creation. We are part of that story, and we wrestle with the details.