You know folks, we can argue all day long on who's saved and who isn't, but the bottom line is, none of us really know, period!
Put a period where you wish, but I think that if we cannot know we are saved, then this whole thing is nonsense. And I do not think it is nonsense. The bible teaches WE CAN KNOW we have eternal life.
1 John 5:13 KJV These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Put a period where you wish, but I think that if we cannot know we are saved, then this whole thing is nonsense. And I do not think it is nonsense. The bible teaches WE CAN KNOW we have eternal life.
1 John 5:13 KJV These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
It also says there will be some who think they are saved, but are not.
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
You know folks, we can argue all day long on who's saved and who isn't, but the bottom line is, none of us really know, period! Speak for yourself bro.
I haven't been there and neither has anyone on this Forum. The "Other Side" will remain a mystery until the old Ticker stops ticking.
People will fight and bicker over this until the end of time. We can say the Bible is clear, but that is an out and out LIE! If the Bible was clear, we wouldn't be succumbed to this eternal debate. It's not just this perceived "lack of clarity" that is in question, it is reading an archaic document in the lens of modern-day history that has arrived at the heels of multiple theological movements. That's more important than "the Bible is unclear."
The Good Book can say what we want it to say, and that is why there are thousands of denominations who claim they are SAVED. Why don't we just admit we DON'T KNOW, because that is the real Truth?? NFS, the majority of us don't argue much on "when are you saved." True that the denominations argue more on other matters -- and these discussions, like the Mishnah (read: midrash) of old, is a good thing. Many of these problems go back to (again) trying to read back to the Text as objective as we can (though quite sure pure objectivity is impossible).
Someone will probably counter my post with a million Scriptures to prove they know, but it still comes down to this; YOU HAVEN'T BEEN THERE, and, someone else will disagree with you! That's doesn't mean one doesn't know. Your case is that we can only "know" if we've empirically witnessed death and resurrection. I disagree. Since we are at least both speaking in terms of assumptions -- like salvation exists, God exists, etc... there is empirical evidence of our salvation found in the Special Revelation that is scripture. "How can I be saved" is a fundamental question of the Story. The unknown realms of life (current and after death) can only be validated by experiencing them. Very existential of youWe are doing this World an injustice by building dogmas based upon a group’s interpretation of what's going to happen, even though we really aren't sure. I don't think it's injustice, I think it's great. Is there concrete, objective reality and truth about what God said, about what Jesus said and about what the Apostles said? What did they originally mean? Sure, we can come to the question with more humility, but that only invigorates once to contend for the truth of the matter.
We've seen in History where claims were made about the unseen, solid factual claims, until the door was truly opened. When the Earth was seen from outer space, many past beliefs were put to rest forever, including beliefs by those who had FAITH. The unseen will always be used to manipulate people by those who can't see what they are talking about. If you can't question something, you can't validate it, leaving all the room in the universe to paint a FALSE picture.
There are so many holes in this topic, leaving me to want more proof about life, not more of the same of "I know" but can't confirm. Think about it; If we can't confirm something, the door is WIDE open to say whatever we want, believe what we want, tell people what God is like, isn't like, and how He will treat us when we die.
Why would God place us here with a body and mind that validates by what it sees and experiences, then turn around and produce a World we can't see or prove with the senses we are born with? Great question. What's your response? Or is the question wrong perhaps? Can we not see the World he's created? This doesn't appear to be logical, or fair in our attempt to conceive what is really important, especially concerning Eternity.
We are supposed to prepare for this afterlife where time is no more, but we can't even prove its real, using a Book that has nothing but one missing link after another. Like I've stated in previous threads, Hell (Eternal Damnation) didn't even appear in the teachings of the Bible until recently (1000-1500 years ago). The idea of hellfire was certainly not that recently, if you are referring to Dante's Inferno. But I catch your drift. Hell has evolved in that time period. But disregard that, and understand hell as an absence of God, and heaven as the ultimate awareness of God. THat may help. This unseen place is used to strike fear into people, but we can't even validate its existence, and don't know why it can't be found in the Old Testament. We just assume it’s real, ignoring that for some strange reason, Hell mysteriously appears in God’s Word just a few centuries ago. Again, Hades, Sheoul, etc are all not "recent appearances" in God's Word. Where did you get that from?
To be honest, people are growing tired of the guess work. They want real answers. They want something that will keep their family together, not destroy it. That's nobleI’ve seen so much divorce in the Church, it’s beyond sad. We tell people, “Come, God will mend your Family. God will heal your diseases. God will save your children”. After these things don’t happen, the most important thing regarding Faith, is LOST; TRUST. They only way to restore Trust, is to stop giving people false hopes, and give them answers that can be proven to be true.
People want their needs met. They want to point back to them. We see this as the ultimate of nobility, but in reality, it's the disguise of sin. The STory of our Creator God trying to reconcile us is a beautiful one, and He's trying to get us to stop worshipping us, and worshipping Him.
In the end, I can fill books of "evidence" as to there being a God, and that evidence can be categorically different in every regard. But, the truth is, by human science, I can't "prove" there is a God, neither can I prove there is no God. So your words are broad. We must identify what we do believe. God? Do you believe in Jesus? Is what He said true? Start from there. Unbelief is a human reality, but the ultimate goal of God (John). So I want to interact with your question/statement, but need to know where to start. In reality, I feel you were just venting more than trying to go somewhere with it, but if I'm wrong, let me know.
Put a period where you wish, but I think that if we cannot know we are saved, then this whole thing is nonsense. And I do not think it is nonsense. The bible teaches WE CAN KNOW we have eternal life.
1 John 5:13 KJV These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.
Jeff, your response for the most part is more of the same. Just admit it, you and I don't know and much of what you say is assumed.
My referral to Hell is the Eternal Damnation spoken of in the New Testament. I've studied Scripture intensely for over 30 years, and Eternal Fire, burning the lost for Eternity is not found in the Old Testament.
This is an important fact that we cannot, nor must not, ignore. This unseen place of doom has the Catholic Church written all over it and appears to be "More of the same". Just accept it because "It is Written". Forget the proof and just have blind Faith.
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I disagree. One can have faith and refuse to repent. I already noted that I had faith when I heard the gospel, but I refused to repent at first. I did not want to release some sins.
This would not be an example of Hebrews 11:6, faith. You apparently did not think that it was worth your while to "seek" God. Since it does not fit the Biblical definition of faith I have a hard time seeing how, "One can have faith and refuse to repent."
Jeff, your response for the most part is more of the same. Just admit it, you and I don't know and much of what you say is assumed.
My referral to Hell is the Eternal Damnation spoken of in the New Testament. I've studied Scripture intensely for over 30 years, and Eternal Fire, burning the lost for Eternity is not found in the Old Testament.
This is an important fact that we cannot, nor must not, ignore. This unseen place of doom has the Catholic Church written all over it and appears to be "More of the same". Just accept it because "It is Written". Forget the proof and just have blind Faith.
Give me a chance... ha. Sheesh.
Not to discount your questions, but is this a current crisis you are in? I've read words from you in the past that propped you as just as much a fundamentalist stooge as I
So let me ask you then... what's your answer? What's your solution to this crisis here?
The question is not what I don't know, it's what I do know. This topic can't be handled universally, to be fair. If you want to discuss the existence of God, which I can't prove to you, but which he has proven to me, that's a place to start. If you want me to discuss the credibility of the Bible, we can do that as well. I'll admit some vulnerabilities in my position, and admit to even some holes, but at the end of the day there's enough evidence that leads me to believe. If we want to talk about Jesus and if he is who he claimed, that's a starting point (and a great one).
So... I will actually agree with you. I don't know! But I am persuaded, and persuaded by cognitive evidence, by my heart and soul and by empirical, existential means.
So... if you want to talk about Hell and it's validity in the scriptures, that's a GREAT discussion. But I kindly ask you to start a new thread for it. I'll chip in however I can. At the end of the day, I won't answer every lingering doubt. Neither will you or anyone else. We are all fellow men on a journey through this. I'm not afraid of your questions or doubt, because I have and had my own. But... I believe! Not with cognitive dissonance either. I fully believe in the most essential of cases. I am persuaded by others, and have doubt about others. There's room for us all. Imagine that. We don't have to have it all figured out.
Not to discount your questions, but is this a current crisis you are in? I've read words from you in the past that propped you as just as much a fundamentalist stooge as I
So let me ask you then... what's your answer? What's your solution to this crisis here?
The question is not what I don't know, it's what I do know. This topic can't be handled universally, to be fair. If you want to discuss the existence of God, which I can't prove to you, but which he has proven to me, that's a place to start. If you want me to discuss the credibility of the Bible, we can do that as well. I'll admit some vulnerabilities in my position, and admit to even some holes, but at the end of the day there's enough evidence that leads me to believe. If we want to talk about Jesus and if he is who he claimed, that's a starting point (and a great one).
So... I will actually agree with you. I don't know! But I am persuaded, and persuaded by cognitive evidence, by my heart and soul and by empirical, existential means.
So... if you want to talk about Hell and it's validity in the scriptures, that's a GREAT discussion. But I kindly ask you to start a new thread for it. I'll chip in however I can. At the end of the day, I won't answer every lingering doubt. Neither will you or anyone else. We are all fellow men on a journey through this. I'm not afraid of your questions or doubt, because I have and had my own. But... I believe! Not with cognitive dissonance either. I fully believe in the most essential of cases. I am persuaded by others, and have doubt about others. There's room for us all. Imagine that. We don't have to have it all figured out.
Awesome post! I'll revisit this tomorrow. It's been one long day. LOL
Again, many great thoughts here, worthy of response.
Awesome post! I'll revisit this tomorrow. It's been one long day. LOL
Again, many great thoughts here, worthy of response.
NFS
I, for one, would be interested in your "hell thoughts", for this is a troubling subject for me, personally. As for me, I don't care where you talk about it...here or its own thread...but I'd be interested to hear your thoughts concerning hell AND heaven and their differentiating concepts in the Testaments.
Jeffrey's points are well-spoken and completely valid...we can't "prove" but we can "believe" and ultimately, that's what we've chosen to do. Yes, I have personal experiences that prove God completely to me.
I know this may irk some of the bible-thumpers, but the bible doesn't prove God to me. It confirms it. But with the bible's confirmation of God, come the verses that make me scratch my head.
NFS, you're one here who seems to type out very well my heart...my heart that was unable to properly verbalize it. So I look forward to hearing what you have to say.
It also says there will be some who think they are saved, but are not.
That is true! Deception is possible, but, still, we can know we are saved.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
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