The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[mfblume]

Notofworks, I guess I will not get a reply about the need to realize righteousness is not a simple issue from you.

I guess my post was too long for your attention span, as per your words, no insult intended.

Well, anyway, how is baptism a work like walking an old lady across the street to get to heave by works, anyway.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Notofworks, I guess I will not get a reply about the need to realize righteousness is not a simple issue from you.

Mike, with respect, that sentence is not a simple issue.

Originally Posted by mfblume

I guess my post was too long for your attention span, as per your words, no insult intended.

Well, anyway, how is baptism a work like walking an old lady across the street to get to heave by works, anyway.

If the "old lady" needs to "heave" it's best she do it in the street and not on the side walk.

Baptism becomes a "work" when dogmatic literalists professing to have some sort of "revealed" insight demand that all Christians baptize according to their rite or find themselves abandoned and "heaving" in the flaming streets of hell.

Alternately, baptism is not a "work" when a sincere believer, leaving a life of sin behind, is buried with Christ and rises to a new life, walking in the Spirit.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by pelathais

Baptism becomes a "work" when dogmatic literalists professing to have some sort of "revealed" insight demand that all Christians baptize according to their rite or find themselves abandoned and "heaving" in the flaming streets of hell.

Alternately, baptism is not a "work" when a sincere believer, leaving a life of sin behind, is buried with Christ and rises to a new life, walking in the Spirit.

I find no problem with what you stated here.

[pelathais]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I find no problem with what you stated here.

Also, I am not interested in arguing something with you. I just wanted to know where righteousness fits into your theology. Let me make it shorter to read. If righteousness is so simple an issue, what is your thought about these verses:

Matthew 5:20 KJV For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 5:17 KJV For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

How does righteousness fit into salvation in your mind?

"Righteousness" begins as a free gift to those who believe (Genesis 15:6 and Revelation 19:8). It is a robe that is "granted" to us.

Once having received this gift, it becomes our duty to "wear" the "robe" or "armor" that righteousness represents: Matthew 22:11-14 and Ephesians 6:14-17.

By my own personal conduct I can either "put on" or "put off" this garment that I received as a free gift.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by pelathais

"Righteousness" begins as a free gift to those who believe (Genesis 15:6 and Revelation 19:8). It is a robe that is "granted" to us.

Once having received this gift, it becomes our duty to "wear" the "robe" or "armor" that righteousness represents: Matthew 22:11-14 and Ephesians 6:14-17.

By my own personal conduct I can either "put on" or "put off" this garment that I received as a free gift.

Oops, I mistakenly typed words about righteousness to you that I meant for notofworks.

Anyway, I agree with you.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Notofworks, I guess I will not get a reply about the need to realize righteousness is not a simple issue from you.

I guess my post was too long for your attention span, as per your words, no insult intended.

Well, anyway, how is baptism a work like walking an old lady across the street to get to heave by works, anyway.

Oh, I didn't take it as an insult. You're correct...my attention span gets pretty short at times, especially when the content is incorrect, misapplied, or boring.

I've kinda stopped reading your stuff, but happened to notice my "name" so I read this one. I stopped reading because, mostly, it's just the same stuff over and over and over again. And you take a different subject and attempt to throw it into the discussion of salvation. You're wanting to talk about "righteousness" and if you do, start a thread and see what happens. If you want to throw in the process or "righteousness" into the discussion of salvation, then go ahead. I'm sure someone will argue with you. I won't. I'm trying to get Derek to sign up, though, so if I'm ever successful, I'll let you two go at it!

And your last sentence....."Well, anyway, how is baptism a work like walking an old lady across the street to get to heave by works, anyway.", doesn't make any sense to me. Is there a typo or something?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

And your last sentence....."Well, anyway, how is baptism a work like walking an old lady across the street to get to heave by works, anyway.", doesn't make any sense to me. Is there a typo or something?

Let me rephrase it. You said a "work" is something like helping an old lady cross the street. So, I asked how is water baptism such a work.

I stopped reading because, mostly, it's just the same stuff over and over and over again.

Also, I am not interested in arguing something with you. I just wanted to know where righteousness fits into your theology. Let me make it shorter to read. If righteousness is so simple an issue, what is your thought about these verses:

Matthew 5:20 KJV For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 5:17 KJV For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

How does righteousness fit into salvation in your mind?

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Let me rephrase it. You said a "work" is something like helping an old lady cross the street. So, I asked how is water baptism such a work.

Also, I am not interested in arguing something with you. I just wanted to know where righteousness fits into your theology. Let me make it shorter to read. If righteousness is so simple an issue, what is your thought about these verses:

Matthew 5:20 KJV For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.

Romans 5:17 KJV For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

How does righteousness fit into salvation in your mind?

The word "Righteous" can cover a lot of territory. The "Just" in the Old Testament and the word "Righteous" in the New Testament can be interchangeable. Righteousness can be obedience. Romans 5:17 seems to point to a right standing with God while the Matthew 5 reference seems to have more to do with obedience.

So what is your point? You keep coming back to "Righteousness", so go ahead and make your point because I'm not figuring out your code.

I'm not sure that I said that "works are something like helping an old lady across the street" as a blanket all-inclusive statement. I believe I was talking about the concept of works bettering our position with God for salvation. I'm not sure what helping an old lady across the street has to do with baptism.

[TheLegalist]

Originally Posted by notofworks

The word "Righteous" can cover a lot of territory. The "Just" in the Old Testament and the word "Righteous" in the New Testament can be interchangeable. Righteousness can be obedience. Romans 5:17 seems to point to a right standing with God while the Matthew 5 reference seems to have more to do with obedience.

It also means justice done toward a individual. Which is counting.... considering something aright/just or wrong/unrighteous. The usage in the OT is clear on it is usd this way many times. In general it is always in response TO something. God's grace is always a response to something. GOd gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. Why? Because justice is done toward the condition. God responds in perfect justice and is judging always to respond to people in a righteous way.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by TheLegalist

It also means justice done toward a individual. Which is counting.... considering something aright/just or wrong/unrighteous. The usage in the OT is clear on it is usd this way many times. In general it is always in response TO something. God's grace is always a response to something. GOd gives grace to the humble and resists the proud. Why? Because justice is done toward the condition. God responds in perfect justice and is judging always to respond to people in a righteous way.

Wonderful thoughts about righteousness. I'm still just wanting to know why Mike is stuck on getting me, or others, to define and discuss righteousness. Why is this being weaved into the discussion of works, helping old ladies across the street, and the fact that works cannot save.

Legalist...do you believe that works of any kind are involved in salvation, and I'm not speaking of the work of Christ?