The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Hey Mike, I'd like to read this article you're referring to. Does it need to be emailed? I can PM the address to you.

But on the "Cross Alone" topic, I guess we're at an impasse. The topic has been hashed, rehashed, and overhashed. The main point I jumped in with was when you claimed you eliminated sin from your life, and as a result, received "The Holy Ghost" as you see receiving it, which is, as you see it, a necessary part of salvation. That, to me, is a system of bettering yourself in order to be saved. I'm sorry, I've tried to hear your heart, what you're saying, and how you're saying it, and it still just all adds up to you improving yourself in order to obtain God's grace.

Obviously, you disagree. I guess we'll let it go at that. For me, "Grace" that depends on us getting better, isn't grace. That would be more like a reward, not grace. Sorry Mike, I just can't get around this one.

There is no article. It's a full book. HUGE file. You can read it online here: http://www.jesus-is-lord.com/kjvdefen.htm

Regarding ridding self of sin, and our disagreement, whatever. Ridding self of sin, as I described it, is simply admitting it is wrong and refusing to hold onto it any more. In short, repentance. You claim we need repentance to be saved, and that it is not a work. It is a work, but not to make us righteous. And unless you can see what I described is repentance, then we indeed are at an impasse.

Only God can remove sin from us, when WE REPENT, and only God can give the Holy Ghost. So I do not know how you make that something categorized as improving ourselves. To disagree is to say God does not mind us holding onto sin. Since I cannot accept that, then you and I cannot agree. I will never preach that God lets us hold onto sin and saves us anyway. But if I should say, "So, I do not think you got what I was trying to say," since I could not imagine you believing God lets us retain sin, you would shut me down again. So I will leave it as disagreement.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

There is no article. It's a full book. HUGE file.

Regarding ridding self of sin, and our disagreement, whatever. Ridding self of sin, as I described it, is simply admitting it is wrong and refusing to hold onto it any more. In short, repentance. You claim we need repentance to be saved, and that it is not a work. It is a work, but not to make us righteous. And unless you can see what I described is repentance, then we indeed are at an impasse.

Only God can remove sin from us, when WE REPENT, and only God can give the Holy Ghost. So I do not know how you make that something categorized as improving ourselves. To disagree is to say God does not mind us holding onto sin. Since I cannot accept that, then you and I cannot agree. I will never preach that God lets us hold onto sin and saves us anyway.

Well, I read an ENTIRE book one time....well, almost, got a little bored....ok, about half of a book, once....fine, I read the introduction....but really, I'd love to read it.

Good grief...just wanted to wrap this up and then you go and say something like only you can say. So if I disagree with your take on salvation, I'm saying that God does not mind us holding onto sin????? Mike, I'd sure like to call you a name right now but it's against AFF rules!

So Mike, if you disagree with me, you're saying that the Pope is the final authority on all things and the Catholic Church rules. Whatever. Way to stretch it there, Mike.

But I must say, you've changed your tune since your original post I called you on. You now say...."Ridding self of sin, as I described it, is simply admitting it is wrong and refusing to hold onto it any more. In short, repentance." That's about a galaxy from what you originally said.

Here's that quotePost 682, page 69)..."I personally know from experience that I sought the Spirit baptism for six months. The trouble was, that I knew I was not letting go of some sins, and when I let go of them I got the Spirit right away! I can only go by my experience. It is not hard. Letting go of sin may be what is hard."


So we don't have to do all this again, but if you're going to have the audacity to say that if I don't agree with you then I believe God wants us to hold on to sin, then you're a........................oops, there's that rule again!

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Well, I read an ENTIRE book one time....well, almost, got a little bored....ok, about half of a book, once....fine, I read the introduction....but really, I'd love to read it.

Good grief...just wanted to wrap this up and then you go and say something like only you can say. So if I disagree with your take on salvation, I'm saying that God does not mind us holding onto sin????? Mike, I'd sure like to call you a name right now but it's against AFF rules!

Well I tried explaining that to you at the start, and you could not get any further than reading "You are not getting what I am saying." That is why I said you surely do not agree with God condoning sin. How else can I tell you that you must not have gotten my point than saying you must not have gotten my point? lol

So Mike, if you disagree with me, you're saying that the Pope is the final authority on all things and the Catholic Church rules.

No. I am saying you must think God condones sin.

Whatever. Way to stretch it there, Mike.

No stretch at all. It's just you will not let me explain myself to you.

But I must say, you've changed your tune since your original post I called you on. You now say...."Ridding self of sin, as I described it, is simply admitting it is wrong and refusing to hold onto it any more. In short, repentance." That's about a galaxy from what you originally said.

No, it's just you would not read past, "You're not getting my point," when I said the same thing in every explanation I tried to give you. Your A.D.D. hindered you from reading that far.

So we don't have to do all this again, but if you're going to have the audacity to say that if I don't agree with you then I believe God wants us to hold on to sin, then you're a........................oops, there's that rule again!

Well, if you would read all I explained, you would know that I only described repentance. I said in my first explanation that I MEANT I WOULD NOT REPENT. And its a two way street. You can have audacity, and no one else can? You had the audacity to say I preach salvation by works when I was only describing repentance. Let's all say "OOOPS!"

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Well I tried explaining that to you at the start, and you could not get any further than reading "You are not getting what I am saying." That is why I said you surely do not agree with God condoning sin. How else can I tell you that you must not have gotten my point than saying you must not have gotten my point? lol

No. I am saying you must think God condones sin.

No stretch at all. It's just you will not let me explain myself to you.

No, it's just you would not read past, "You're not getting my point," when I said the same thing in every explanation I tried to give you. Your A.D.D. hindered you from reading that far.

Well, if you would read all I explained, you would know that I only described repentance. I said in my first explanation that I MEANT I WOULD NOT REPENT. And its a two way street. You can have audacity, and no one else can? You had the audacity to say I preach salvation by works when I was only describing repentance. Let's all say "OOOPS!"

As Ronald Reagan said to several time to then-President Carter, "There you go again." In my attempt to wrap it up, we've entered the theological twilight zone again.

Yes, you are correct that I believe that you believe in salvation by works and you don't believe that you believe that. You can deny 'til the cows come home, and I believe I hear them mooing, but if you believe that you get rid of sin, and then and ONLY then, get saved you believe what you believe, and that is, salvation by works. Like I said before, I don't know of an orthodox Christian denomination that proclaims in their statement of faith, "We believe in salvation by works" so it's ok, Mike....no one thinks they believe it. But if one says that HE did something and as a result, got saved....well, it just is what it is. Sorry.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

But if one says that HE did something and as a result, got saved....well, it just is what it is. Sorry.

Yeah, like he REPENTED, and got saved. Salvation by works. Riigghhht.

Sorry, there is DO we must DO.

Acts 2:37-38 KJV Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

Acts 10:6 KJV He lodgeth with one Simon a tanner, whose house is by the sea side: he shall tell thee what thou oughtest to do.

The problem is some cannot distinguish between "saving works" to get faith, and SAVING FAITH "THAT WORKS".

Knowing that all that I have been trying to say was that I HAD TO REPENT before I could get the Holy Ghost, makes your words, as far as I am concerned, sound like you believe repentance does not have to be done in order to be saved. God saves us in our sins, and those sins do not have to be repented of. If repentance does not involve letting go of sins on our parts, then I have no clue what you think repentance actually is.

Sorry. I do not accept a "repentless" Gospel.

If repentance is not something that involves a releasing of sins, then what is it? lol

That idea sounds like the idea that an Assembly of God pastor proposed when he was shocked to think people still believed they had to repent in order to be saved.

So we're at loggerheads. You will not believe I deny salvation by works, and I will not believe you deny a repentless gospel. So let's carry on from here. Case closed between us!