The Cross of Christ Alone Can Save

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

This is odd. You seem to bounce between being declared righteous, and earning righteousness or becoming righteous. Righteousness is a position we have in Christ, not something we earn through our own efforts to release sin.

You're listening to notofworks' distortion of my words. Read what I said, myself, throughout the last several days.

I never said righteousness is earned. Somehow, notofworks turned my description of repentance into earning righteousness. I tried saying for days now that when I spoke of releasing sin before I could get the Holy Ghost that it was an instance of me refusing to repent. I was holding ontpo sins that I had no desire to release. I knew deep inside they were wrong, but demanded God show me they were wrong after He filled me with His Spirit. So I continued on with those sins. IOW, I DID NOT ACTUALLY REPENT.

That is all I was saying to begin with, but n.o.w. refused to accept that explanation and for some reason does not want to believe I only described my lack of repentance.

Without repentance, God cannot give us anything, let alone the Holy Ghost. In other words, I cannot get IN CHRIST with sin in my life. And I cannot get rid of sin except by repentance.

Of course righteousness is a state of being we obtain just by being in Christ and it is a gift to us that cannot be earned.

1 John 1 said it well. If we SAY we walk in the light, and commit sin or walk in darkness, we lie. We must confess our sin, which I was not willing to do at the point I described, and God is faithful to wash and cleanse us from all sin. That is REPENTANCE. I refused to so much as confess that some sins were indeed sins. So God could not wash them from me. Get it? lol How you guys make that a concept of earning righteousness is beyond me.

Why do you take EFFORTS TO RELEASE SIN to be something more than repentance? I am only explaining what REPENTANCE is.

[Baron1710]

Originally Posted by mfblume

You're listening to notofworks' distortion of my words. Read what I said, myself, throughout the last several days.

I never said righteousness is earned. Somehow, notofworks turned my description of repentance into earning righteousness. I tried saying for days now that when I spoke of releasing sin before I could get the Holy Ghost that it was an instance of me refusing to repent. I was holding ontpo sins that I had no desire to release. I knew deep inside they were wrong, but demanded God show me they were wrong after He filled me with His Spirit. So I continued on with those sins. IOW, I DID NOT ACTUALLY REPENT.

That is all I was saying to begin with, but n.o.w. refused to accept that explanation and for some reason does not want to believe I only described my lack of repentance.

Without repentance, God cannot give us anything, let alone the Holy Ghost. In other words, I cannot get IN CHRIST with sin in my life. And I cannot get rid of sin except by repentance.

Of course righteousness is a state of being we obtain just by being in Christ and it is a gift to us that cannot be earned.

1 John 1 said it well. If we SAY we walk in the light, and commit sin or walk in darkness, we lie. We must confess our sin, which I was not willing to do at the point I described, and God is faithful to wash and cleanse us from all sin. That is REPENTANCE. I refused to so much as confess that some sins were indeed sins. So God could not wash them from me. Get it? lol How you guys make that a concept of earning righteousness is beyond me.

Why do you take EFFORTS TO RELEASE SIN to be something more than repentance? I am only explaining what REPENTANCE is.

Actually I didn't read NOW's stuff, I read the post one of yours that I quoted so NOW didn't poison the water hole at all.

I could not disagree with the above bolded statement more. Repentance is not me becoming perfect or getting all the sin out of my life. It is me accepting the fact that He paid for my sins, will forgive them and begins the process of cleaning me up and removing the result of sin from my life. I might walk out the door and light up a cigarette and it may be decades or more before that is removed from my life, if ever.

I might struggle and fail many times in many areas, in fact I don't believe I will ever eradicate sin from my being in this life.

You seem to saying that you have to get good to get God. That somehow I can clean myself up enough for God to accept me.

I say the Scripture teaches the exact opposite that we have nothing to offer Him and all our righteousness, the very best we can do, is equivalent to a pile of used maxi-pads.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Actually I didn't read NOW's stuff, I read the post one of yours that I quoted so NOW didn't poison the water hole at all.

Ok, sorry to NOW for that thought.

I could not disagree with the above bolded statement more. Repentance is not me becoming perfect or getting all the sin out of my life. It is me accepting the fact that He paid for my sins, will forgive them and begins the process of cleaning me up and removing the result of sin from my life. I might walk out the door and light up a cigarette and it may be decades or more before that is removed from my life, if ever.

But repentance is also CONFESSION that sin is sin, and that is what I had not done.

I might struggle and fail many times in many areas, in fact I don't believe I will ever eradicate sin from my being in this life.

Christ died so we could experience that death in God's eyes, and not see sin have dominion any more. I think that means we can get to the place by faith that we actually walk after the Spirit and not sin. But anyway, stumbling and falling was not the point I made in releasing sin. It was my refusal to confess it was sin, and refusal to recognize it as sin.

You seem to saying that you have to get good to get God. That somehow I can clean myself up enough for God to accept me.

No. We do not get washed up before jumping in the bathtub. But I have been trying to say over and over again that I was not confessing sin was sin, and desired to hold onto it, not convinced it was indeed sin at all, when it was. I cannot free my self from sin any more than anyone else can. But when I talked of getting rid of sin, I meant doing the only thing we can do, which is confess it is sin and admit it AND WANT FREEDOM FROM IT. That's all.

I did not want freedom from it and refused to call it sin. And y'all have to take it up with God, but when I finally confessed it and THEREBY RELEASED IT, I was filled with the Holy Ghost! THAT IS WHAT I MEANT BY LETTING GO OF SIN.

Does that make more sense now? lol

You're preaching to the choir. I agree with you. But somehow my words are being turned into something I never meant by everyone here. lol I only blame myself for lack of clarity.

I say the Scripture teaches the exact opposite that we have nothing to offer Him and all our righteousness, the very best we can do, is equivalent to a pile of used maxi-pads.

I agree! However, I was only saying I DID NOT ACKNOWLEDGE SIN AS SIN. That is what I meant, and no matter how much I try to clarify that, it seems no one is getting it.

If I said it once, I said it a hundred times... REPENTANCE is what I lacked. That is all.

Whew!

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

But repentance is also CONFESSION that sin is sin, and that is what I had not done.

Buried in the muck and mire of all the bloviating that's been going on, here is what I figured might emerge at some point.

Mike, can you expound on this some? (please, not an hour long sermon) I'd like to know the theology behind this statement, specifically, your scriptural basis.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Buried in the muck and mire of all the bloviating that's been going on, here is what I figured might emerge at some point.

Mike, can you expound on this some? (please, not an hour long sermon) I'd like to know the theology behind this statement, specifically, your scriptural basis.

Repentance is:

WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY:

1. To feel pain, sorrow or regret for something done or spoken; as, to repent that we have lost much time in idleness or sensual pleasure; to repent that we have injured or wounded the feelings of a friend. A person repents only of what he himself has done or said.

Greek definition:

G3340
μετανοέω
metanoeō
met-an-o-eh'-o
From G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, that is, reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.

Compunction is a "pricking of the heart". It is what the people who heard Peter preach experienced when we read their hearts were pricked in Acts 2:37.

When one is pricked in their hearts over sin, they want release from it.

1 John 1:9 KJV If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Only God can pardon sin when we confess it to God. And confession of sin is caused by a heavy impression in our souls that produces a godly sorrow.

Adam Clarke explained that 1 John 1:9 as follows, and notice how he quotes 2 Cor 7:9-11, which I quote below Clarke's words:

...and a man that truly confesses his sin is one that the Spirit of God has convinced of it, and has shown him its exceeding sinfulness, and filled him with a godly sorrow for it, and given him repentance unto salvation, that needeth not to be repented of

2 Corinthians 7:9-11 KJV (9) Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. (10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. (11) For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Notice it is a godly sorrowing for sin. I HAD NOT DONE THAT, since I refused to accept that what I was doing was sin. I had no godly sorrow for some of the sins I was committing, but I did for other sins. So I would confess nothing for those particular sins, since I would not admit it was sin, although I knew inside it was.

To say more requires more words, so this is as brief as I can make it.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Repentance is:

WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY:

1. To feel pain, sorrow or regret for something done or spoken; as, to repent that we have lost much time in idleness or sensual pleasure; to repent that we have injured or wounded the feelings of a friend. A person repents only of what he himself has done or said.

Greek definition:

G3340
μετανοέω
metanoeō
met-an-o-eh'-o
From G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, that is, reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.

Compunction is a "pricking of the heart". It is what the people who heard Peter preach experienced when we read their hearts were pricked in Acts 2:37.

When one is pricked in their hearts over sin, they want release from it.

1 John 1:9 KJV If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Only God can pardon sin when we confess it to God. And confession of sin is caused by a heavy impression in our souls that produces a godly sorrow.

Adam Clarke explained that 1 John 1:9 as follows, and notice how he quotes 2 Cor 7:9-11, which I quote below Clarke's words:

...and a man that truly confesses his sin is one that the Spirit of God has convinced of it, and has shown him its exceeding sinfulness, and filled him with a godly sorrow for it, and given him repentance unto salvation, that needeth not to be repented of

2 Corinthians 7:9-11 KJV (9) Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. (10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. (11) For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Notice it is a godly sorrowing for sin. I HAD NOT DONE THAT, since I refused to accept that what I was doing was sin. I had no godly sorrow for some of the sins I was committing, but I did for other sins. So I would confess nothing for those particular sins, since I would not admit it was sin, although I knew inside it was.

To say more requires more words, so this is as brief as I can make it.

Bolded....no, I don't believe it is. Repentance is NOT a Godly sorrow. Repentance is the RESULT of Godly sorrow.

Despite your very thorough explanation, and granted, it's ten times the explanation most could ever give, you still seem to have an element of belief that repentance is a spit & slobber session of begging God for forgiveness. And that's absolutely an element we don't see in scripture.

"Repent" still means "repent", and as you provided the Greek roots for the word we see in scripture, it is a "Turn", or "To think differently". Webster's is fine but that's not the core of the word we see in the bible, which does not mean "To feel pain, sorrow, or regret".

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Bolded....no, I don't believe it is. Repentance is NOT a Godly sorrow.

But the Greek definition says "(morally to feel compunction)"

Repentance is the RESULT of Godly sorrow.

Yes, I can agree with you, partly. But godly sorrow works repentance. But godly sorrow is PART of repentance, too. The Greek definition actually said it! From G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, that is, reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.

That is the reason we read that the pricking of the heart in Acts 2:37 led to the command from Peter for the people to repent in Acts 2:38. First, the heart is pricked, and then the command to repent is to be fulfilled.

Acts 2:37-38 KJV Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do? (38) Then Peter said unto them, Repent, ...

How would you describe someone obeying the command to repent? What do they do when they repent? It is something we choose to do, otherwise neither John the Baptist, Jesus or Peter would tell people they must repent. So it is a work. The only way it is not a work is if we have no choice to accomplish it or not, and it just happens to us without our decision.

Despite your very thorough explanation, and granted, it's ten times the explanation most could ever give, you still seem to have an element of belief that repentance is a spit & slobber session of begging God for forgiveness. And that's absolutely an element we don't see in scripture.

"Repent" still means "repent", and as you provided the Greek roots for the word we see in scripture, it is a "Turn", or "To think differently". Webster's is fine but that's not the core of the word we see in the bible, which does not mean "To feel pain, sorrow, or regret".

Strong's did not even use the term TURN. But I agree turning is involved since it is thinking differently. But the Greek term included FEELING compunction, which is a sorrow. To feel sorrow and Strong's Greek flatly said that.

And that involves thinking differently about sins. I refused to think that the sin I was in was indeed sin. So the repentance element was to think differently and admit it was indeed sin.

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Repentance is:

WEBSTER'S DICTIONARY:

1. To feel pain, sorrow or regret for something done or spoken; as, to repent that we have lost much time in idleness or sensual pleasure; to repent that we have injured or wounded the feelings of a friend. A person repents only of what he himself has done or said.

Greek definition:

G3340
μετανοέω
metanoeō
met-an-o-eh'-o
From G3326 and G3539; to think differently or afterwards, that is, reconsider (morally to feel compunction): - repent.

Compunction is a "pricking of the heart". It is what the people who heard Peter preach experienced when we read their hearts were pricked in Acts 2:37.

When one is pricked in their hearts over sin, they want release from it.

1 John 1:9 KJV If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Only God can pardon sin when we confess it to God. And confession of sin is caused by a heavy impression in our souls that produces a godly sorrow.

Adam Clarke explained that 1 John 1:9 as follows, and notice how he quotes 2 Cor 7:9-11, which I quote below Clarke's words:

...and a man that truly confesses his sin is one that the Spirit of God has convinced of it, and has shown him its exceeding sinfulness, and filled him with a godly sorrow for it, and given him repentance unto salvation, that needeth not to be repented of

2 Corinthians 7:9-11 KJV (9) Now I rejoice, not that ye were made sorry, but that ye sorrowed to repentance: for ye were made sorry after a godly manner, that ye might receive damage by us in nothing. (10) For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of: but the sorrow of the world worketh death. (11) For behold this selfsame thing, that ye sorrowed after a godly sort, what carefulness it wrought in you, yea, what clearing of yourselves, yea, what indignation, yea, what fear, yea, what vehement desire, yea, what zeal, yea, what revenge! In all things ye have approved yourselves to be clear in this matter.

Notice it is a godly sorrowing for sin. I HAD NOT DONE THAT, since I refused to accept that what I was doing was sin. I had no godly sorrow for some of the sins I was committing, but I did for other sins. So I would confess nothing for those particular sins, since I would not admit it was sin, although I knew inside it was.

To say more requires more words, so this is as brief as I can make it.

Mike, I had a long, complicated, educated, and convincing rebuttal to this that would have instantly converted you to a one-stepper, or even a zero-stepper like me. But when I pushed "submit" I had disconnected and lost it. My brilliance is lost in the wind somewhere in techno-outer space.

I'll have to try again.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by notofworks

Mike, I had a long, complicated, educated, and convincing rebuttal to this that would have instantly converted you to a one-stepper, or even a zero-stepper like me. But when I pushed "submit" I had disconnected and lost it. My brilliance is lost in the wind somewhere in techno-outer space.

I'll have to try again.

Must not have been God's will. lolololol (He would not want you to spread error). j/k

[notofworks]

Originally Posted by Baron1710

Actually I didn't read NOW's stuff, I read the post one of yours that I quoted so NOW didn't poison the water hole at all.

I could not disagree with the above bolded statement more. Repentance is not me becoming perfect or getting all the sin out of my life. It is me accepting the fact that He paid for my sins, will forgive them and begins the process of cleaning me up and removing the result of sin from my life. I might walk out the door and light up a cigarette and it may be decades or more before that is removed from my life, if ever.

I might struggle and fail many times in many areas, in fact I don't believe I will ever eradicate sin from my being in this life.

You seem to saying that you have to get good to get God. That somehow I can clean myself up enough for God to accept me.

I say the Scripture teaches the exact opposite that we have nothing to offer Him and all our righteousness, the very best we can do, is equivalent to a pile of used maxi-pads.

Bolded....I just ran the aisles. Ok, I would NEVER run the aisles, but you get my drift. Well said.

This is why I just beat my head against the wall when Mike, and many others, really, say they got rid of sin in their life and THEN got saved.