Was every Jew responsible for the crucifixion?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I always believed in corporate guilt.

So you are saying that all Jews in that day were responsible corporately for the cross as Peter said?

I am saying that Israel was responsible but not that all Jews were.

Wait. Let me get your point straight. You believe Peter spoke of Corporate guilt in Acts 2:23, 36, right?

Yes, Israel was guilty for Christ's death.

Do you believe that when Peter referred to them saving themselves from that untoward GENERATION, it was a reference to corporate guilt?

No, I do not believe that.

And yet there is no repentance required for corporate guilt?

None. You can only repent or turn from the things you yourself do.

The truth is Peter offered them escape from corporate guilt by repentance. Their guilt was for sin. Individual or not, the individual escaped the corporate guilt by repentance.

The truth is that Peter offered them salvation by turning toward Jesus and being baptized. They could not repent for crucifying Christ because as individuals they didn't cause it. They could turn toward Jesus though. That is the repentance that Peter spoke of.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by jfrog

I am saying that Israel was responsible but not that all Jews were.

So all Jews did not comprise Israel?

Yes, Israel was guilty for Christ's death.

No, I do not believe that.

The fact is that GENERATION refers to the corporate people at that day. If not, what does it refer to? In effect, you leave the individual Jew of that day without escape from Israel who was guilty of the cross, leaving Jews unable to be saved then.

None. You can only repent or turn from the things you yourself do.

I think that is extremely wrong. Corporate guilt means individuals have guilt they share with other individuals. And you are saying the blood of Jesus cannot expiate that guilt.

The truth is that Peter offered them salvation by turning toward Jesus and being baptized. They could not repent for crucifying Christ because as individuals they didn't cause it. They could turn toward Jesus though. That is the repentance that Peter spoke of.

That makes nonsense out of Peter's intention of preaching Israel's sin, then. Sorry, your thoughts do not make sense, j. Saving themselves from that generation was individual escape from corporate guilt.

Why did God destroy ALL JERUSALEM 40 years later? In history, the church fled the city due to Matt 24's instructions. Some of those jews who crucified the Lord corporately were later saved and escaped. All other Jews were left to face the havoc. WHY?

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by mfblume

So all Jews did not comprise Israel?



The fact is that GENERATION refers to the corporate people at that day. If not, what does it refer to? In effect, you leave the individual Jew of that day without escape from Israel who was guilty of the cross, leaving Jews unable to be saved then.

Jews are saved the same way gentiles are. The gentiles didn't have to be responsible for the death of Christ to receive salvation and neither did the jews.

I think that is extremely wrong. Corporate guilt means individuals have guilt they share with other individuals. And you are saying the blood of Jesus cannot expiate that guilt.

I am saying that Israel as a nation was guilty of the crucifixion and that some individual jews were guilty of it too. This is the same as saying Germany as a nation was guilty of the Holocaust and that some individual germans were guilty of it too.

That makes nonsense out of Peter's intention of preaching Israel's sin, then. Sorry, your thoughts do not make sense, j. Saving themselves from that generation was individual escape from corporate guilt.

Being saved from that generation was not a way to save them from bearing the guilt of that generation. Saving themselves from that generation was about saving themselves from the fate of that generation both in the immediate context of the destruction of Jerusalem and in the eternal context.

Why did God destroy ALL JERUSALEM 40 years later? In history, the church fled the city due to Matt 24's instructions. Some of those jews who crucified the Lord corporately were later saved and escaped. All other Jews were left to face the havoc. WHY?

God didn't destroy every Jew. God destroyed Jerusalem and probly not even all of it. If God destroyed every Jew in the destruction of Jerusalem then there wouldn't be any left today. Some escaped that judgment by believing on Christ and some escaped it without believing on Christ. If the descrtuction of Jerusalem had been punishment for individual guilt then all the Jews that were guilty of Christ's crucifixion would have been judged. Therefore, if your paradigm was correct then all Jews would have died in the destruction of Jerusalem.

To answer your first question. All Jews comprise Israel but the actions of any nation are not necessarily the actions of all the people of that nation. Therefore, the nation crucified him but it was only some individuals of Israel instead of all individuals of Israel that crucified him.

[RevDWW]

Ever sinner is responsible, so that would include all Jews. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God..........

[jfrog]

Originally Posted by RevDWW

Ever sinner is responsible, so that would include all Jews. All have sinned and come short of the glory of God..........

Maybe, but every sinner is not directly responsible for the crucifixion and that is what we are discussing. Were the jews, each and every one that was alive in Jesus day directly responsible for the crucifixion?

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by jfrog

[COLOR="DarkRed"]God didn't destroy every Jew. God destroyed Jerusalem and probly not even all of it.

Read history. ALL OF THE CITY was destroyed. Ezekiel 5 foretold of THREE fates of the people of Jerusalem. They would be killed, burned and scattered to the wind. EVERY PERSON in the city experienced one of those three fates. I never said all WOULD DIE. I said all there would be met with judgment for their corporate guilt.

So again, WHY did every single Jew in Jerusalem receive this judgment?

WHY did Jesus say the women and their children would cry for the rocks and mountains to cover them?

To answer your first question. All Jews comprise Israel but the actions of any nation are not necessarily the actions of all the people of that nation.

Not in Israel's case in that day.

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by jfrog

Acts 2:22-23
22Ye men of Israel, hear these words; Jesus of Nazareth, a man approved of God among you by miracles and wonders and signs, which God did by him in the midst of you, as ye yourselves also know:
23Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

What do you make of Peter saying (I'm paraphrasing) that the men of Israel crucified Jesus?

Originally Posted by mfblume

The point I was attempting to make in this thread was that in Acts 2 Peter accused every Jews of that day of crucifying Jesus in a way apart from the guilt of humanity, dead, born or unborn. God bless!

Peter could have directed these comments to the ones who were asking questions, or to every onlooker. I can teach a class and in the middle of the lesson look directly at a student and say "You need to sit down," without indicating that everyone in the room was standing. Just sayin'...

Originally Posted by mfblume

Read history. ALL OF THE CITY was destroyed. Ezekiel 5 foretold of THREE fates of the people of Jerusalem. They would be killed, burned and scattered to the wind. EVERY PERSON in the city experienced one of those three fates. I never said all WOULD DIE. I said all there would be met with judgment for their corporate guilt.

So again, WHY did every single Jew in Jerusalem receive this judgment?

WHY did Jesus say the women and their children would cry for the rocks and mountains to cover them?

In Ezekiel 5 there is no mention of the rejection of the Messiah, much less of Jesus' crucifixion or their responsibility for it.

5“This is what the Sovereign Lord says: This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations, with countries all around her. 6Yet in her wickedness she has rebelled against my laws and decrees more than the nations and countries around her. She has rejected my laws and has not followed my decrees.
7“Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says: You have been more unruly than the nations around you and have not followed my decrees or kept my laws. You have not evena conformed to the standards of the nations around you.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by missourimary

Peter could have directed these comments to the ones who were asking questions, or to every onlooker. I can teach a class and in the middle of the lesson look directly at a student and say "You need to sit down," without indicating that everyone in the room was standing. Just sayin'...

When Peter told the HOUSE OF ISRAEL they were guilty, it is pretty plain.

Act 2:36 KJV Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

In Ezekiel 5 there is no mention of the rejection of the Messiah, much less of Jesus' crucifixion or their responsibility for it.

Why was this fulfilled to the "t" in AD70? History shows this is precisely what happened when Rome razed the city. I can provide to documentation if you wish. Do you believe AD70 and Jerusalem's destruction had nothing to do with Jesus being rejected?

Mat 23:35-38 KJV That upon you may come all the righteous blood shed upon the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel unto the blood of Zacharias son of Barachias, whom ye slew between the temple and the altar. (36) Verily I say unto you, All these things shall come upon this generation. (37) O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not! (38) Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

And your response does not answer why Jesus told women that they and their children would cry for the mountains and rocks to hide them.

[missourimary]

Originally Posted by mfblume

When Peter told the HOUSE OF ISRAEL they were guilty, it is pretty plain.

Act 2:36 KJV Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

It could be read, at least in the English, to mean either, "let all of you know that God has made this same Jesus whom all of you have crucified" or "let all of you know that God has make this same Jesus who [you and you and you, who were in the crowd yelling 'crucify' or were among those who plotted with Judas] both Lord and Christ. In English it would depend totally on body language to determine which sense of you was indicated. In the Greek, I believe there is a verb tense variation, but I don't read Greek.

As to the other, there are several prophecies that could be understood to represent several things. But I wasn't debating whether or not the prophecy in Ezekiel was intended to describe the events in 70 AD, but rather that Ezekiel 5 is talking about destruction coming as a result of the Jews disobedience to God's laws and commands, not their rejection of Christ.