So, if it were not for the law, we would not know how sinful we are? Yeah, I guess that makes sense. If there were no law, we wouldn't know it was a sin to lie, for example. So we'd think it's OK to lie, and we would lie, without even knowing it was.... Wait. I'm confused again! It wouldn't be a sin to lie if God never told us not to lie! Would it?
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
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...Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ...(Acts 20:21)
Rom 7:7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? God forbid. Nay, I had not known sin, but by the law: for I had not known lust, except the law had said, Thou shalt not covet.
Well there ya go!
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
So, if it were not for the law, we would not know how sinful we are? Yeah, I guess that makes sense. If there were no law, we wouldn't know it was a sin to lie, for example. So we'd think it's OK to lie, and we would lie, without even knowing it was.... Wait. I'm confused again! It wouldn't be a sin to lie if God never told us not to lie! Would it?
Of course, to the Gentiles, Paul charges them that even nature itself declares God's glory, and some things are known, made plain to all (Romans 1), and that all are guilty
Mt 22:36Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38This is the first and great commandment. 39And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
You are touching on how it is that Jesus raised the carnal, moral law out of the realm of the natural into that of the spiritual...
There is a great deal of writing that should be done to shed the proper light on this subject but the Grace Only, Cross Alone, Once Saved Always Saved, folks will go crazy erroneously calling it salvation of works and not of grace or faith alone. Then, this thread will turn into a meaningless river of nothingness.
But, briefly...
There are two tables of the carnal moral law. Carnal because it has to do with the natural realm given to a natural people, living in a natural land, worshiping in a natural temple...on and on...natural.
On the second table, dealing with man's relationship with man, we find among the other six commandments there, "Thou shalt not kill." Thus, if I love my neighbor as myself, in the spiritual sense, I will not place a stumbling block before him to cause him to be discouraged in seeking the way of salvation for his soul. If I speak ill of the church, disparage the Word, rendering it to none effect in his mind, if I speak ill of the man who preaches the Word of God, in effect, I have killed that man, by destroying his soul in hell.
Here it can be seen how the command to not kill is lifted out of the area of the carnal thought of natural murder or manslaughter to a spiritual light. This is just one of the many, many areas of spiritual understanding of what Paul called the "Spiritual Law."
The spiritual extrapolation of understanding the spiritual law is almost limitless. It is why that David said that he meditated on it day and night. It was always on his mind.
But, never you mind about all of this foolishness, Grace alone will take care of everything. Don't fret or worry in the least. Just beeeeelieeeeeve. Build an air castle in the sky and just go to sssssleep. All of this LAW business has nothing to do with ssssalvation.
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Staying Busy REPENTING and DOING THE FIRST WORKS
So we are still required to be fully compliant to the Law? Is the penalty that was endured by Jesus past, present or future?
As I said there are elements of Law that are typological of the reality we have simply by being in Christ, like the feasts. We actually keep the feasts of Israel in the truest sense, of which those feasts were only a shadow. For example, Jesus is my sabbath! It is not a day but an eternal state.
And any curse that was issued by Law was fulfilled in Christ and taken for us, so we need not obey certain laws to not be cursed, but to remain in Christ. For example, tithing was meant to keep a person from a curse. But the cross caused Christ to become a curse for us. That means we cannot replace the cross with tithing. Pay tithes to be blessed. But not to avoid a curse.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
The "ceremonial law" was nailed to the cross, and the moral law is now spiritualized?
Speaking of which, does everyone agree in the distinction of laws: moral, ceremonial, civil? Seems to be a dispy-type distinction accepted by many. So with the moral law (10 Commandments) now spiritualized, does that mean they are still in the form of "thou shalt not kill, etc..." or they are defined only by and through the Gospel lens, and that of the cross.
If we could, please say it plainer so us slower folks can understand.
He did not say law was spiritualized, but lifted out of natural into the spiritual. I believe this means thou shalt not kill is effected by the Power of the Spirit in us, rather than self effort and will power. Law-keeping without the empowerment and inspiration of the Spirit is done through will power alone.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
As I said there are elements of Law that are typological of the reality we have simply by being in Christ, like the feasts. We actually keep the feasts of Israel in the truest sense, of which those feasts were only a shadow. For example, Jesus is my sabbath! It is not a day but an eternal state.
I like your answer, but where do you get that from? Did the Jews understand the festival (many which were given as a way of remembering) to be temporary and a shadow of something to come?
And any curse that was issued by Law was fulfilled in Christ and taken for us, so we need not obey certain laws to not be cursed, but to remain in Christ. For example, tithing was meant to keep a person from a curse. But the cross caused Christ to become a curse for us. That means we cannot replace the cross with tithing. Pay tithes to be blessed. But not to avoid a curse.
I like much of what you said here.
So, to her original question to you, is the penalty that was endured by Jesus past, present or future?
He did not say law was spiritualized, but lifted out of natural into the spiritual. I believe this means thou shalt not kill is effected by the Power of the Spirit in us, rather than self effort and will power. Law-keeping without the empowerment and inspiration of the Spirit is done through will power alone.
Spiritualized, lifted out of natural into the spiritual. Was Ivy not meaning the same thing? Ivy?
He did not say law was spiritualized, but lifted out of natural into the spiritual. I believe this means thou shalt not kill is effected by the Power of the Spirit in us, rather than self effort and will power. Law-keeping without the empowerment and inspiration of the Spirit is done through will power alone.
That's right. I did not say it was "spiritualized." I simply said that Jesus lifted the moral/carnal law out of the lower realm into the higher spiritual light.
Thus, when I think of not stealing, certainly if I love my neighbor as myself, I would not think of stealing from him. Certainly, if I loved my neighbor as myself, I would not steal his wife or his goods of any sort. But, more than that...in the spiritual realm of the greater light, if I love my neighbor as myself, I would not rob him of the treasures of the Word of God, whereby men become spiritually wealthy by those treasures there. This is done by perverting the understanding in the mind of my neighbor from receiving or holding to those treasures there. Thus, I become a spiritual thief.
Jesus came to reveal the spiritual light upon the WHOLE LAW, causing men of light to see objects in the spiritual light.
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Staying Busy REPENTING and DOING THE FIRST WORKS
Last edited by Apprehended; 01-11-2011 at 11:22 AM.
As I said there are elements of Law that are typological of the reality we have simply by being in Christ, like the feasts. We actually keep the feasts of Israel in the truest sense, of which those feasts were only a shadow. For example, Jesus is my sabbath! It is not a day but an eternal state.
And any curse that was issued by Law was fulfilled in Christ and taken for us, so we need not obey certain laws to not be cursed, but to remain in Christ. For example, tithing was meant to keep a person from a curse. But the cross caused Christ to become a curse for us. That means we cannot replace the cross with tithing. Pay tithes to be blessed. But not to avoid a curse.
Amen!!! I personally like to say:
Pay tithes in the OT
Give tithes in the NT
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...Testifying both to the Jews, and also to the Greeks, repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ...(Acts 20:21)
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