Baptism: Essential or Not

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Stephanas

LUKE 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it."

Under what Old Testament principle or promise was the thief forgiven and offered a place in Paradise?

JOHN 1:17 "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

Actually, it would take the actual death/resurrection of Jesus bring in the NT.



Heb 8:13

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
KJV


Writer of hebrews consider the old covenant decaying and about to vanish away. This was many years after John or Jesus.

If the law was done at john then there be no sin for even Christ to die for because sin cometh by the law.

[DAII]

Originally Posted by Stephanas

LUKE 16:16 "The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached, and every man presses into it."

Under what Old Testament principle or promise was the thief forgiven and offered a place in Paradise?

JOHN 1:17 "For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ."

Also using 3 stepper hermeneutic, as their dispensationalists views his death as the entering of our new covenant ...

For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

The thief died after Jesus

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by DAII

Also using 3 stepper hermeneutic, as their dispensationalists views his death as the entering of our new covenant ...

For where a testament [is], there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

The thief died after Jesus

How do you get the thief died after Jesus? Not that it matters a whole lot.

[Stephanas]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Actually, it would take the actual death/resurrection of Jesus bring in the NT.



Heb 8:13

13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
KJV


Writer of hebrews consider the old covenant decaying and about to vanish away. This was many years after John or Jesus.

The old covenant was in force until may years after John or Jesus????

If the law was done at john then there be no sin for even Christ to die for because sin cometh by the law.

Extending this logic: There was no sin before the law; and no sin after whatever point you judge the law to have been fulfilled????

To simplify the point:

"Under what Old Testament principle or promise was the thief forgiven and offered a place in Paradise?"

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by Stephanas

The old covenant was in force until may years after John or Jesus????

Did you read what the writer of hebrews said?

Extending this logic: There was no sin before the law; and no sin after whatever point you judge the law to have been fulfilled????

To simplify the point:

"Under what Old Testament principle or promise was the thief forgiven and offered a place in Paradise?"

Good questions. Bible says no law no sin, from what i understand. Don't have all the answers but it says no law no transgression.

Paul said:

Rom 7:8

8 But sin , taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
KJV



As far as the thief, not sure, but to compare him to after the resurrection and establishment would not be right. even John stated that Holy ghost would not be given til after Jesus was glorified.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Thief was OT

So you believe it was easier to be saved in the OT than in the NT? Less was required? The thief on the cross is a picture perfect of the grace of God.

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

How do you get the thief died after Jesus? Not that it matters a whole lot.

That's an easy one. They broke the legs of the two thieves to speed up the dying. When they got to Jesus, he was already dead. Hence, Christ was dead before the thief. The thief died under the new covenant.

Which brings us to an interesting question. What would be the eternal destiny of someone who believed in Jesus yet died during the three days He was in the tomb?

[Truthseeker]

Originally Posted by deacon blues

That's an easy one. They broke the legs of the two thieves to speed up the dying. When they got to Jesus, he was already dead. Hence, Christ was dead before the thief. The thief died under the new covenant.

Which brings us to an interesting question. What would be the eternal destiny of someone who believed in Jesus yet died during the three days He was in the tomb?

Good point, forgot about that breaking legs stuff.


Don't know. Jesus said one must be born again. John said Spirit would not given til after he was glorified. Why couldn't spirit be given before he was glorified???

[deacon blues]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Corneilius received the Holy Spirit before being baptized thats true. Yet as soon as he was finished speaking in tongues he and all his household were COMMANDED by the Apostle Peter be BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD.

I WONDER WHY?

The Apostles COMMANDED the Antioch church to abstain from meat offered to idols, from blood, and from the meat of strangled animals in Acts 15. That didn't make those things essential to salvation.

[Stephanas]

Originally Posted by Truthseeker

Good questions. Bible says no law no sin, from what i understand. Don't have all the answers but it says no law no transgression.

Paul said:

Rom 7:8

8 But sin , taking occasion by the commandment, wrought in me all manner of concupiscence. For without the law sin was dead.
KJV



As far as the thief, not sure, but to compare him to after the resurrection and establishment would not be right. even John stated that Holy ghost would not be given til after Jesus was glorified.

Abraham was justified by faith before the Law of Moses.

David was justified by faith under the Law of Moses.

The thief was justified by faith during the transition between Law and Grace.

I have been justified by faith after the fulfilment of the Law in Christ.

Baptism is essential for every New Testament believer who has been justified by faith, just as circumcision was essential for Moses after he was justified by faith.

Any person who professes faith and refuses baptism ought to join the word of faith movement and enjoy all the health and wealth that they can on this side of the eternal divide. If you refuse baptism, you deny your profession of faith. Baptism is absolutely essential for New Testament believers.