False Doctrine Part 1 - How To Stop Sinning

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

You have conditions of exchange to obtain whether you like it or not.




It's what you teach. forensic salvation that relies only on a initial positional change vs a practical justification by bilateral covenant in which we are judged faithful or not.



No you have a limitied view of views on justification. Reformed view of justification is false.

Could I challenge you to step outside the comfort of labels and categories and just consider the Cross with me? I won't comment on your Catholic view of Justification. I just want to know what the Scriptures say. I'm not concerned with "am I still defending the theological category I circled on my paper?" I'm more concerned with "what does the cross mean." A swim through Romans and Galatians pretty much dissects the Gospel so that we can't just recite verses as a shield.

If we are judged faithful by our own works, how is that not a works-based salvation, Luke? And why did we need the Cross anyway? Was it a "fresh start" we needed? Just a "Reset" button, then we could do it on our own? If you "break covenant" by sinning (which, if you are like any of us, happens more often than we like -- in fact, EVERYDAY), how does that work? Do I have to constantly maintain that covenant: breaking, restoring, breaking, restoring? At the cross, and at regeneration is nothing settled past, present and future? What type of security do you have?

You are performing a race that isn't about saving yourself, it's about living in the free Grace that is already yours.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Timmy

What's with the "Part 1" in the title? Hasn't there been, like, a hundred threads about false doctrines? Just sayin'.

I thought that "saying" died with 2010?

Yeah, it's just for the sake of a title. And who knows, there may be a Part 2 coming soon

[Socialite]

Looking unto Jesus, the AUTHOR and FINISHER of our faith!

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Could I challenge you to step outside the comfort of labels and categories and just consider the Cross with me? I won't comment on your Catholic view of Justification. I just want to know what the Scriptures say. I'm not concerned with "am I still defending the theological category I circled on my paper?" I'm more concerned with "what does the cross mean." A swim through Romans and Galatians pretty much dissects the Gospel so that we can't just recite verses as a shield.

If we are judged faithful by our own works, how is that not a works-based salvation, Luke? And why did we need the Cross anyway? Was it a "fresh start" we needed? Just a "Reset" button, then we could do it on our own? If you "break covenant" by sinning (which, if you are like any of us, happens more often than we like -- in fact, EVERYDAY), how does that work? Do I have to constantly maintain that covenant: breaking, restoring, breaking, restoring? At the cross, and at regeneration is nothing settled past, present and future? What type of security do you have?

You are performing a race that isn't about saving yourself, it's about living in the free Grace that is already yours.

Well considering you say one thing then post another? "....in fact, EVERYDAY" which again says what I said your mentality was. You can't stop sinning and you really don't have power over the flesh by the Spirit. You just have a positional righteousness and no practical righteousness of overcoming. The source is not our work. THe reality of our salvation received in the end IS about our response to the gospel and his commandments. Security? Love how that word gets thrown around. Security is God will do what he promised. IF is conditional and you don't like it. "IF we... "we are secure in his promises.

Have somethings going on and won't be around much today. gotta go.

[Socialite]

We are not under the Old Covenant of Law, blessings or curses given based on our performance, but under the New Covenant of grace, granting us blessings from God based on Christ’s performance. In other words, under the New Covenant, the blessing precedes our obedience. We obey because we are blessed in Christ (Eph 1:3), not the other way around.

New Covenant
Matthew 26:28, Mark 14:24, Luke 22:20, 1 Corinthians 11:25, Hebrews 9:18, 9:20, 12:24, 13:20

Sadly, most Christians believe that Jesus shed His blood merely to “forgive their sins”. Actually, Jesus shed His precious blood “for the remission of sins” (Mat 26:28) and to institute a New Covenant.

The entire book of Hebrews is taken up with the vast difference between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant, law and grace, the inferior priesthood of the Old Covenant versus the superior, the perfect, eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ, the inferior mediation in the Old Covenant, and the superior mediation of Jesus Christ in the New Covenant.

We know that a covenant, particularly a blood covenant, is the most binding promise of performance or contract that exists.

In short, the Old Covenant is the Covenant of Law. It is a contract between God and man, based on man’s performance. In essence the Old Covenant says:
* IF you obey, perfectly, all of the law, THEN you will be blessed (Deuteronomy 28:1­-14).
* If you fail to perfectly obey, you are cursed. (Deuteronomy 27:26, 28:15-­68). Jesus made it even clearer when He said that perfect obedience must come from the heart (Matt 5:21-30).In short, the Old Covenant is a conditional covenant, based on the performance of man, based on man’s obedience. It says “Perfectly, totally obey and then you will be blessed. Disobey, even at one point, and then you will be cursed” (James 2:10, Deuteronomy 27:26).

Then Jesus came along and put the law on steroids. He declared in Matthew 5:20:

For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

The reason was simple: God demands perfect obedience, from the heart. He is not interested in fake, artificial or counterfeit (external) righteousness.

Thus the Old Covenant is a covenant of failure, condemnation, curses and death. Romans 1:18-­3:19 provides ample evidence of the total, abject failure of all men in sin. Romans 3:19 says:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God.

That is why Romans 3:20 declares:

Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

[Socialite]

The whole point of the Old Covenant – a covenant that promises blessings, IF you totally, perfectly and always obey, wholeheartedly (and curses if you fail) – is this:

To exalt the righteousness of God and condemn the “righteousness of man”.

The reason is simple: all righteousness apart from God is idolatry, it is sheer blasphemy. If we could derive righteousness and obedience from ourselves, then God would have to worship us. God will have nothing to do with that.

The Bible plainly declares in myriad places that man is not good. That God alone is good.

“No one is good but One, that is, God.” (Mark 10:18b)

Romans 3:10­-12:

[10] As it is written: “There is none righteous, no, not one;

[11] There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.

[12] They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.”

So, the idea that we “get blessings from God because of our obedience” is crushed repeatedly in all 66 books of the Bible! The Bible is abundantly clear in at least 1,000 verses that man is an abysmal failure and that God alone is righteous.

So what does the Bible teach that man deserves? Guilt, wrath, condemnation, curses and death. Hell.

Thank God He doesn’t stop there! Thank God our God is a redeeming God!

You see, then, that the entire plan of salvation rests on a cornerstone, foundational concept in the Bible that says:

“Unless God blesses us, we have no hope”!

Praise God, because God is GOOD, He goes out of His way to bless us. Not because of our obedience (because we are such failures), but based upon the perfect obedience, perfect righteousness and perfect goodness of God Himself, The Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 5:8­-11:

[8] But God demonstrates His own love toward us, in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.[9] Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from wrath through Him.[10] For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.[11] And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus

That is precisely why God instituted The NEW COVENANT, in the precious blood of Jesus!


The book on the New Covenant is the Book of Hebrews. The New Covenant, prophesied centuries earlier by Jeremiah (Jer 31:31i­34) is cited twice in Hebrews, once in chapter 8 and again in chapter 10. Here is the reference in chapter 8:31­-34

[31] “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—[32] “not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD.[33] “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.[34] “No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

The first thing to observe about the New Covenant is that it is not about our “I wills”. It is not about us or what we “do for God”. It is about what God does, what He initiates, what He wills, what He performs. Look at the same passage with some helpful highlights:

[31] “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—

[32] “not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the LORD. [33] “But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. [34] “No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the LORD,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

So what does God do in the New Covenant?

He puts His law in our minds and writes it on our hearts. In other words, His action, His blessing enables us to wholeheartedly obey.

Because of His action, we are blessed with a personal relationship with Him. “I will be their God and they will be my people”. We are His people as the result of His action, His choice, His will. Not ours.

Because of His action, His will, He forgives our iniquity and remembers our sin no more.

Let me ask: are not these things blessings from God? How do we get them? Through our obedience? No! But through the perfect righteousness and obedience of our High Priest, the Lord Jesus Christ!

What is the result of that blessing?

* Wholehearted obedience (because He blessed us by putting His law in our minds and writing them on our hearts!)
* We become His people (because He blessed us by saying, “I will be their God and they shall be my people”!)
* We are completely cleansed and God doesn’t even recall our sins against (because He blesses us by declaring, “I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”)
The New Covenant also appears in other places in the Bible. One dramatic reference is found in Ezekiel 36:25-­27:

[25] “Then I will sprinkle clean water on you, and you shall be clean; I will cleanse you from all your filthiness and from all your idols.[26] “I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh and give you a heart of flesh.[27] “I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes, and you will keep My judgments and do them.

Let me ask: isn’t this the case of God blessing us, not because of our obedience, not predicated or conditioned on our obedience?

In this recitation of the New Covenant God promises and blesses us with:

* Cleansing, real cleansing from our filthiness and idolatry (verse 25). Is this not a blessing? Is it conditioned on our obedience or God’s goodness and grace?
* God gives us a new heart and a new spirit. He takes out that dead heart of stone, that’s lifeless and unresponsive to Him, and gives us a new heart and a new spirit – one that’s alive and responsive to Him! Is this not a blessing? Is it conditioned on our obedience or God’s goodness and grace?
* God puts His Spirit – that means Himself (“Christ in you the hope of glory”, Col 1:27) – inside of us. What is the result of Jesus Christ, through the agency of the Holy Spirit, living in us? God Himself, internally causes us to “walk in My statutes” and “keep my judgments and do them”. Is this not a blessing? Is it conditioned on our obedience or God’s goodness and grace?

Here’s the New Covenant in Jeremiah 32:40-­41a:

(40) ‘And I will make an everlasting covenant with them, that I will not turn away from doing them good [that’s blessing!]; but I will put My fear in their hearts so that they will not depart from Me. (41) ‘Yes, I will rejoice over them to do them good [that’s blessing!]

Isn’t it ironic, though, how we – in our unrenewed, fleshly minds – think that there is some sort of an “I will” on our part that can somehow merit the favor (blessing) of God? Where does such thinking come from?

(Cue Lucifer's "I Will"s in Isaiah)

Sometimes it's best to just do citing. Above citation is from the blog of Mark VanOuse

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

Well considering you say one thing then post another? "....in fact, EVERYDAY" which again says what I said your mentality was. You can't stop sinning and you really don't have power over the flesh by the Spirit. You just have a positional righteousness and no practical righteousness of overcoming. The source is not our work. THe reality of our salvation received in the end IS about our response to the gospel and his commandments. Security? Love how that word gets thrown around. Security is God will do what he promised. IF is conditional and you don't like it. "IF we... "we are secure in his promises.

Have somethings going on and won't be around much today. gotta go.

I do have power over the flesh by the Spirit. I don't have it down perfectly yet, nor is that dependent on God's acceptance on me (how liberating that is). I'm learning to walk with a gracious heavenly Father.

Are you saying you've stopped sinning? No more struggled with self-righteousness, doing it your way, trusting in God for things in your life, anxiety and stress, wandering eyes, evil thoughts, selfishness, discontent, times where love is dry.... you are sinless, Luke? Really???

Recognizing my utter dependence on the Cross and living a life of sin are two different things. You seem to get tripped up on that. You have it painted in your mind that those who accept what the Cross did means we will live like clowns, slothfully and carelessly, not as followers of Jesus. I've not known Grace in that way.

Yes, our righteousness, the declaring of us righteous (Romans 4) has changed our position before God. We are declared just. God has looked on Jesus, the Christ who bore suffering for our sin.

No, I don't like "conditional." The love of God is without condition, and nothing can separate us from His love (Romans 8). What is Agape Love, but love unconditional? He did not come and die because we couldn't get it right, then say his Cross is now based on our performance. That wouldn't make sense, and it certainly isn't the Gospel.

I've realized great freedom in a life lived as a follower of His. I've come to know personally the cost of discipleship. I know what the cross feels like in my own life, and that we aren't promised our "best life now," instant health and a bed of roses everyday. That sometimes we suffer with and for Him. That sometimes we are blessed with and for Him. That through both we give God glory in our lives. I've been delivered of addictions, am learning more and more how to "be who I am in Christ." I rely on the Spirit's work in sanctification, confident in my position before Jesus, and knowing He loves me no matter what. It's not a careless gesture of grace. I realize the depth of my brokenness, so Grace is that much more immense to me. He that received freely when he did not deserve, lives life with the same generosity.
We learn to walk by the Spirit. We are no longer slaves to sin. But none of that is our performance field for salvation -- we are no longer slaves, because Jesus paid it all!!!

[Socialite]

Sinless Life?

What GOD, through the scriptures, is telling us all, is that if He is living His life in us then when evil thoughts do come, they will no longer have dominion in our lives. That is what 'doth not commit sin... and cannot sin" means. It means Roman six:

Rom 6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
Rom 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin , live any longer therein?
Rom 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?
Rom 6:4 Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.
Rom 6:5 For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also [in the likeness] of [his] resurrection:
Rom 6:6 Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with [him], that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.
Rom 6:7 For he that is dead is freed from sin.
Rom 6:8 Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:
Rom 6:9 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.
Rom 6:10 For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
Rom 6:11 Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.
Rom 6:13 Neither yield ye your members [as] instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
Rom 6:14 For sin shall not have dominion over you : for ye are not under the law, but under grace.
Rom 6:15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Rom 6:16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
Rom 6:17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.
Rom 6:18 Being then made free from sin , ye became the servants of righteousness.
Rom 6:19 I speak after the manner of men because of the infirmity of your flesh: for as ye have yielded your members servants to uncleanness and to iniquity unto iniquity; even so now yield your members servants to righteousness unto holiness.
Rom 6:20 For when ye were the servants of sin, ye were free from righteousness.
Rom 6:21 What fruit had ye then in those things whereof ye are now ashamed? for the end of those things [is] death.
Rom 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.
Rom 6:23 For the wages of sin [is] death; but the gift of God [is] eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

At least six times in this one chapter Paul affirms that these Roman converts are 'dead to sin... freed from sin... and sin does not have dominion over them." And by this Paul is saying that there should be a change in direction in the lives of those in whom Christ dwells just as Christ was in type telling the man who was healed of his lameness and the woman caught in adultery,"Go, and sin no more." Christ certainly was not saying 'Go, and do not ever even raise your voice to another human or a worse thing will come on you.' What He is saying is that "sin shall not have dominion over you... you have now become a servant to God, and you have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life."

Peter makes the exact same point that Paul and John make when he says:

1 Pet 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;
1 Pet 4:2 That he no longer should live the rest of [his] time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God.

So "ceasing from sin" scripturally means simply that "we no longer... live the rest of our time in the flesh to the lusts of men, but to the will of God."

[Socialite]

Romans 12:1

"Therefore, I urge you, brother, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God -- this is your spiritual act of worship."

We obey, worship, become disciples BECAUSE.... not FOR

Interestingly enough, while pounding out a strong sense of the duty given every person who would honor God, Paul attaches this essential doorway of commitment to a hinge in the form of a phrase: "in view of God's mercy." In essence, the principle of offering one's body as a living sacrifice is somehow connected to the grace of being able to see more of who he is and more of what he has already done for us. To the writer of Romans, the best way to strengthen our commitment is to improve our view (of Grace).

[Michael The Disciple]

Hi Luke,

Its really something isnt it? An "Apostolic Forum" that is now basically following Protestant/Evangelical doctrine. To them our obedience by faith in the truth means nothing. You have given a good try to help them.