Hate Of Reformed Theology

[Acoustic]

Originally Posted by mfblume

According to Calvinism not really everyone was going to hell since God knew the end from the beginning and predestined some to heaven before their birth.

I agree, I was being sloppy there. To put is correctly All deserve, from the womb, God's wrath and without the redemption of Christ we are going to Hell. It is not that God predestines people to Hell, Hell is what we deserve outside of Christ's redemption

Originally Posted by mfblume

I never said it was arbitrary. But to know God purposely sends some to hell is the issue, and I will not accept that. As I told Socialite, it contradicts the fact that God does not will that any should perish. I can imagine the mental gymnastics that occur over that verse to get around the obvious. lol

The remark about arbitrary was probably referring to another comment in the thread.
But it is exceedingly clear that God purposely sends some to Hell - The Day of Judgement is when He will do that.
You are right God does not will that any would perish but that does not contradict His Holiness which demands justice - The wages of sin is death. Take the verse that none shall perish outside of universalism then it becomes conditional - so the question becomes what conditions are applied?

Originally Posted by mfblume

I see that this nothing to do with Western thought. Think of it. God is not wiling that any should perish, but he willingly predestines some to perish??? It flatly contradicts the word.

The western mindset has the presupposition of free will, in other parts of the world this is not the case.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Acoustic

The western mindset has the presupposition of free will, in other parts of the world this is not the case.

That's what I discovered... and it wasn't in a theology class!

Talk more about that... it's a primary point.

[aegsm76]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Blogger, Brian LePort says this:



Good post on this -- at least thought-provoking.

That was a good post. I have often had some of those same discussions with myself and reached "most" of the same conclusions.

[Jermyn Davidson]

To imply that God doesn't know those who are His until they die is to limit the Omniscience of God.

I see nothing contradictory about a God who knows what choices we will make with the free will He has blessed us with.

Yes we can choose.
Yes He knows the choices we will make before we make them.

God is Sovereign.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

To imply that God doesn't know those who are His until they die is to limit the Omniscience of God.

I see nothing contradictory about a God who knows what choices we will make with the free will He has blessed us with.

Yes we can choose.
Yes He knows the choices we will make before we make them.

God is Sovereign.

But that overlooks the fact that He chooses us, we don't choose Him. Fundamental part of the Story.

Each and every time, it was God that called, summoned, initiated, chose and appealed to. He does the choosing, and that makes our "choice" a very small detail in the scheme of things. Once we are approached by the Hound of Heaven, there is not much else we can do (though I do believe one can reject His goodness -- I find that it's difficult).

No one can even come to Him, unless the Spirit draws them.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by aegsm76

That was a good post. I have often had some of those same discussions with myself and reached "most" of the same conclusions.

Glad you enjoyed it. He says it better than I for right now. My head is a messy chalkboard on the subject. My heart on the matter is calm and peace

[Acoustic]

Originally Posted by Socialite

In the end, I'm not interested in calling myself a Calvinist or Arminianist. I can care less about signing on to theological platforms and defending them until the death. I care more about understanding God's character, receiving His grace that has found me when I was lost and abandoned.

It's interesting many get so upset with Reformed teaching, concerned about licentiousness and passivity. In me, this Story does the exact opposite. I am stirred, humbled, and want to live my life with the same grace I received. I am more spurned on to follow the ways of Jesus. True believing, reception of grace and heart regeneration should produce this IMO.



(P.S. Mizpeh, I'll try to find my notes, but I've seen strong evidence that the insistence on foreknowledge over individual election to be a contradiction of scripture, and in some cases, not even fitting the context -- I'll see if I can't find my old notes.)

Right On!!

[crakjak]

Originally Posted by Acoustic

Are you a universalist? If so I can understand your problem with reformed theology.

I notice you have 1 Cor 15:22 as your tag line - do you believe all are saved? If not then how do you understand this scripture?

The very next verse says But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Notice that it is not ALL but those that BELONG to Christ. ie the ones he purchased with his blood. Also John 6:37 says "All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." Indecently this was the verse I based my comment "I have come to taste the sweetness of what it means to be justified by God's grace - to know that none who are given to Christ will be lost and be able to rest (be still and know that I am God) in the Sabbath that is Jesus Christ."

Regarding your accusation of arrogance and self-centredness you either have absolutely no understanding of reformed theology or you are purposefully ignoring some of the basic premises. Christ-centredness, NOT self-centredness, is at the heart of reformed theology. Any reformed who was acting arrogant regarding their salvation really has no understanding of the doctrine of justification and when examined would be exposed as not having a correct understanding or reformed theology.
How could anyone who truly believes that while they were still an enemy of God, God sent His Son to die for them, when all they deserved was God's wrath, be arrogant?? The life of Paul is a perfect example of this.

SDG

22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

23But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

25For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

26The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

27For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Let's include the total context, a lot more comes after "...those that belong to Christ..." with the ultimate being "...put ALL things under him, that God may be ALL IN ALL." He goes ahead and completes the work, and God is finally all in all. Giving means to "...so ALSO in Christ ALL are made alive..." referring back to "...as in Adam ALL die..." The same folks that died in Adam are made alive in Christ.

[Acoustic]

Originally Posted by Jermyn Davidson

To imply that God doesn't know those who are His until they die is to limit the Omniscience of God.

I see nothing contradictory about a God who knows what choices we will make with the free will He has blessed us with.

Yes we can choose.
Yes He knows the choices we will make before we make them.

God is Sovereign.

This assumes that mankind in a state of enmity toward God, a slave to sin and hating the light would choose God.


SDG

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by Acoustic

This assumes that mankind in a state of enmity toward God, a slave to sin and hating the light would choose God.


SDG

And that is true, whether one subscribes to complete and total depravity or prevenient grace.