Hate Of Reformed Theology

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Not unless man has a choice in the matter. Calvinism seems to me to be brain candy (it's fun to figure things like God out), as well as an alternative to not understanding that we can overcome sin through the power of the Spirit. I say this about overcoming sin because Calvinists always resort to finally saying sin is simply something we can never overcome. Paul clearly taught differently in Rom 6.

Blume, do you believe in triumphalism? One day we will finally overcome, and in large part, we have overcome now. However, that gap between imperfection and perfection is still glaring and real. Sin is present with me everyday. I am able to avoid "living in it" with the help of the Spirit in my life. Still, there are times I live according to the flesh, and I make a mess. What Paul "clearly" taught in Romans is anticipated response to Jewish Christians that this powerful message of Grace, though it sounded like we could sin and it wouldn't matter (where sin abounds, grace also more abounds), it certainly doesn't mean we should continue on living in rebellion to God. On the contrary, we are now slaves to righteousness, and the Spirit is our way to new life. Paul never trumpeted "Real Christians will never sin." The reality is, like sickness, sorrow, a creation travailing, we are all waiting for our final day of redemption.

Brain candy? Pot shot IMO. Some of the finest brains in theological circles are Calvinist. Hardly people trying to categorize God or "figure him all out." They are honest, bible-believing brothers, who love God, love His Story, and this is what they see in the Story.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I can only say what the scriptures say. So long as we walk after the Spirit, we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. And that is possible to maintain. Sin is still in our flesh, but we keep it under within our bodies, and we overcome its influence by the Spirit's empowerment. I never saw a calvinist who looked at it this way.

You've never met one then.

That's probably John Piper verbatim.

One thing I've noticed on this post so far, is the attitude that sin is only sin until it's become an action. That's not the standard Jesus drew up. For example, he told the man who never cheated on his wife he was still an adulterer by looking on another woman. At the playing field of action, many of us are still guilty, but the Pharisees thought they had that one down. However, Jesus informed them that it was their heart that was full of sin. They had the moral laws down, but their hearts were distant from God and filled with pride.

At the heart level, I realize I'm still a sinner --- a sinner, overcoming by the Spirit, learning how to walk in God's grace and not my own record, and one growing until the day we are glorified. But perfect we are far from. It seems Pennies don't feel that way (in my experience). If they do admit we are sinners, it's viewed in terms of moralism, and not what sin is really about.

How many times a day to I fail to trust God? Get anxious not believing He is in control? Become worried about other's opinion not believing He is most glorious? A hateful thought about the annoying person next to me (not showing love -- one of his greatest commandments). Lustful thoughts and looks? Selfishness? Yeah... knowing my heart, this is WHY I strive to live a life 'in the Spirit,' in response to Grace, etc...

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Blume, do you believe in triumphalism? One day we will finally overcome, and in large part, we have overcome now. However, that gap between imperfection and perfection is still glaring and real. Sin is present with me everyday. I am able to avoid "living in it" with the help of the Spirit in my life. Still, there are times I live according to the flesh, and I make a mess.

I think it actually boils down to whether or not it is possible to maintain a walk after the Spirit that is mentioned in Gal 5 -- so long as we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Paul did not say this could not be maintained. Though we make mistakes, theoretically, due to what Paul said, it seems it is possible to maintain this walking after the Spirit and never sin again. Though sin is still in us as a moral force, walking after the Spirit (which is dependence on the Spirit) keeps sin dormant, so to speak. It is such a temptation for us to take things into our own hands and thereby cease walking after the Spirit. In such times we will slip into sinful activity. The propensity is in us to take things into our own hands. I actually think that this is inbred in us because we ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

What Paul "clearly" taught in Romans is anticipated response to Jewish Christians that this powerful message of Grace, though it sounded like we could sin and it wouldn't matter (where sin abounds, grace also more abounds), it certainly doesn't mean we should continue on living in rebellion to God. On the contrary, we are now slaves to righteousness, and the Spirit is our way to new life. Paul never trumpeted "Real Christians will never sin."

I did not say "real" Christians will not sin. But rather ANY Christian can change their expectations to sin instead to believing we are above sin due to the reasoning Paul provided in Romans 6.

I think it primarily is a problem of us expecting to sin. And Paul removes that expectation to trade it for expectation to not sin by walking us through the reasoning of how we have been raised above the domination of sin through our unions to Christ's death. Only when he walks us through this can we begin to grasp our actual position and potential. So it is enlightened Christians who can cease sinning. Not "real" Christians.

The reality is, like sickness, sorrow, a creation travailing, we are all waiting for our final day of redemption.

Brain candy? Pot shot IMO. Some of the finest brains in theological circles are Calvinist. Hardly people trying to categorize God or "figure him all out." They are honest, bible-believing brothers, who love God, love His Story, and this is what they see in the Story.

I do not doubt their sincerity. But ALL intellectuals have a temptation of enjoying brain candy in the issue. It is just that some groups emphasize the intellectual exercises that can be experienced in theology than others. I think of the Roman Catholics who, seemingly solely out of intellectual reasoning, arrive at the conclusions they hold regarding Mary being sinless, etc. Their reasoning seems to make sense, but the bible never flatly stated what they claim are natural conclusions.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Socialite

You've never met one then.

That's probably John Piper verbatim.

One thing I've noticed on this post so far, is the attitude that sin is only sin until it's become an action. That's not the standard Jesus drew up.

On the contrary, I already implied that sin is a moral force whether we act upon it or not.

For example, he told the man who never cheated on his wife he was still an adulterer by looking on another woman. At the playing field of action, many of us are still guilty, but the Pharisees thought they had that one down. However, Jesus informed them that it was their heart that was full of sin. They had the moral laws down, but their hearts were distant from God and filled with pride.

Amen.

At the heart level, I realize I'm still a sinner --- a sinner, overcoming by the Spirit, learning how to walk in God's grace and not my own record, and one growing until the day we are glorified.

This is the sort of thing I have problems with. The word never describes as us sinners in the present sense. We are sanctified ones. Saints.

But perfect we are far from. It seems Pennies don't feel that way (in my experience). If they do admit we are sinners, it's viewed in terms of moralism, and not what sin is really about.

How many times a day to I fail to trust God? Get anxious not believing He is in control? Become worried about other's opinion not believing He is most glorious? A hateful thought about the annoying person next to me (not showing love -- one of his greatest commandments). Lustful thoughts and looks? Selfishness? Yeah... knowing my heart, this is WHY I strive to live a life 'in the Spirit,' in response to Grace, etc...

I think these are issues that reveal immaturity in the Spirit rather than evidence we are still sinners.

[Socialite]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by mfblume

I think it actually boils down to whether or not it is possible to maintain a walk after the Spirit that is mentioned in Gal 5 -- so long as we walk in the Spirit we will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Paul did not say this could not be maintained. Though we make mistakes, theoretically, due to what Paul said, it seems it is possible to maintain this walking after the Spirit and never sin again. Though sin is still in us as a moral force, walking after the Spirit (which is dependence on the Spirit) keeps sin dormant, so to speak. It is such a temptation for us to take things into our own hands and thereby cease walking after the Spirit. In such times we will slip into sinful activity. The propensity is in us to take things into our own hands. I actually think that this is inbred in us because we ate the fruit of the knowledge of good and evil.

So this goes back to the question, then, you believe it's possible (and expected) that a Christian be sinless after they've come to faith in Christ?

Paul says, if you walk in the Spirit you live a life pleasing to God. But not all the time do we all walk in the Spirit. We have moments where our flesh gets the best of us.

I really want to know if you believe in triumphalism or not.



I

did not say "real" Christians will not sin. But rather ANY Christian can change their expectations to sin instead to believing we are above sin due to the reasoning Paul provided in Romans 6.

I agree with that.

I think it primarily is a problem of us expecting to sin. And Paul removes that expectation to trade it for expectation to not sin by walking us through the reasoning of how we have been raised above the domination of sin through our unions to Christ's death. Only when he walks us through this can we begin to grasp our actual position and potential. So it is enlightened Christians who can cease sinning. Not "real" Christians.

I disagree that this was Paul's aim in Romans 6. The message of Grace was so forceful --- we are no longer positionally viewed by God as sinners. We are seen through the atoning work of Jesus. Positionally, we are no longer sinners. But just as all of creation, including us, is waiting for that final day of redemption, this is a perfect example of "already, not yet" Pauline eschatology.

Bottom line: there are no Christians without sin. I think that's important so people don't carry the weight of condemnation when they do sin. And perfectionism expectations yields that. I can encourage people "walk in the Spirit" and not "fulfill the lusts of the flesh" and still tell them that " if you sin... you have an advocate." I believe this was Paul's words as well

I do not doubt their sincerity. But ALL intellectuals have a temptation of enjoying brain candy in the issue. It is just that some groups emphasize the intellectual exercises that can be experienced in theology than others. I think of the Roman Catholics who, seemingly solely out of intellectual reasoning, arrive at the conclusions they hold regarding Mary being sinless, etc. Their reasoning seems to make sense, but the bible never flatly stated what they claim are natural conclusions.

Without getting into Maryology, or the RCC, I still find your comment unfounded. Undoubtedly, some view theology itself as brain candy -- OP, Calvinists, Arminians, Catholics, Jews, Mormons, JW's, Atheists, etc You name it.

[Socialite]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Socialite View Post
You've never met one then.

That's probably John Piper verbatim.

One thing I've noticed on this post so far, is the attitude that sin is only sin until it's become an action. That's not the standard Jesus drew up.

BLUME:
On the contrary, I already implied that sin is a moral force whether we act upon it or not.

Is it a moral force (external) or a moral force (internal) or both? Are we still in a "body of death" while at the same time a "new creation?"

I know LUKE2424 (I think that's his handle) suggested he had thought of sin, but had not acted on it, so he was okay. This is why I made the observation. Our hearts are where we sin the most. And God looks on the heart!

Quote:
For example, he told the man who never cheated on his wife he was still an adulterer by looking on another woman. At the playing field of action, many of us are still guilty, but the Pharisees thought they had that one down. However, Jesus informed them that it was their heart that was full of sin. They had the moral laws down, but their hearts were distant from God and filled with pride.
BLUME:
Amen.

And I see that as an indictment on us all. Another reason we all need the Cross.

Quote:
At the heart level, I realize I'm still a sinner --- a sinner, overcoming by the Spirit, learning how to walk in God's grace and not my own record, and one growing until the day we are glorified.

BLUME:
This is the sort of thing I have problems with. The word never describes as us sinners in the present sense. We are sanctified ones. Saints.

Sanctified, is our process of being redeemed, made holy, etc.. Justified is our positional difference before God. Positionally I am righteous. At a heart-level, I am re-born as a son of God. But we are not delivered from this body of sin yet. We still are inclined to sin, doubt, suffer, become afraid, die, etc.

I think when most are describing Christians as "sinners saved by Grace" it's the truth. Without the Grace of God, that's exactly how he sees us. We are no more perfect.

Quote:
But perfect we are far from. It seems Pennies don't feel that way (in my experience). If they do admit we are sinners, it's viewed in terms of moralism, and not what sin is really about.

How many times a day to I fail to trust God? Get anxious not believing He is in control? Become worried about other's opinion not believing He is most glorious? A hateful thought about the annoying person next to me (not showing love -- one of his greatest commandments). Lustful thoughts and looks? Selfishness? Yeah... knowing my heart, this is WHY I strive to live a life 'in the Spirit,' in response to Grace, etc...

BLUME:
I think these are issues that reveal immaturity in the Spirit rather than evidence we are still sinners.

This immaturity is still sin. Failing to trust God was the most fundamental of sins, and was the sin behind Eve's disobedience. It's where it all began. The more mature we become, the deeper that trust becomes. But it's not perfected yet.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Is it a moral force (external) or a moral force (internal) or both? Are we still in a "body of death" while at the same time a "new creation?"

Yes!

But the BODY OF DEATH was termed so because Paul saw that sin (the moral force) was IN that body, internally, and he seemingly felt he could not escape it aside from actually DYING and leaving that body! He spoke of the body in those terms in his hypothetical state of ANY person who is saved and does not know they can walk after the Spirit. He described what a person saved will experience when they do not realize what life will be lived when one tries to live by LAW to serve God, rather than newness of the Spirit.

And note what Paul said! THERE IS A DELIVERANCE from the body of death! He thanked God for that deliverance that comes THROUGH JESUS CHRIST, which is basically what he said in Rom 7:4.

I have long considered this part of Paul's words. I know there is more to it than I can presently grasp. But somehow, by revelation of our death with Christ, we are delivered from our bodies by PROXY, so to speak. This occurs when we know that Christ's death that led to His resurrection is actually our deaths which were meant to lead us to experience a resurrection ("present yourselves alive from the dead" - Ro 6:13) while in mortal bodies (Rom 8:11-13).

I know LUKE2424 (I think that's his handle) suggested he had thought of sin, but had not acted on it, so he was okay. This is why I made the observation. Our hearts are where we sin the most. And God looks on the heart!

I agree. But even THAT can be overcome.

And I see that as an indictment on us all. Another reason we all need the Cross.

We always need the cross in this life, for sure. That is because carrying our crosses and denying ourselves is the same thing as saying we walk after the Spirit to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. The cross slays flesh so as to cause us to receive empowerment of resurrection Life from the Spirit. That empowerment causes us to not sin.

Sanctified, is our process of being redeemed, made holy, etc.. Justified is our positional difference before God. Positionally I am righteous.

Right. But revelation and spiritual maturity through Paul's revelation causes this to occur experientially.

At a heart-level, I am re-born as a son of God. But we are not delivered from this body of sin yet. We still are inclined to sin, doubt, suffer, become afraid, die, etc.

YES WE ARE! Again, read the last two verses of Rom 7. Paul said HE thanked God he was already delivered through Christ and the cross, which is what he was trying to teach in Rom 6.

I think when most are describing Christians as "sinners saved by Grace" it's the truth. Without the Grace of God, that's exactly how he sees us. We are no more perfect.

But the Word does not describe us like that. Granted it is a humbling effort, but I think it goes against Paul's focus in Romans.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Socialite

Is it a moral force (external) or a moral force (internal) or both? Are we still in a "body of death" while at the same time a "new creation?"

I know LUKE2424 (I think that's his handle) suggested he had thought of sin, but had not acted on it, so he was okay. This is why I made the observation. Our hearts are where we sin the most. And God looks on the heart!

hmmm and now I know why it is best not to discuss things with you. You do not listen and you make up stuff.

[mfblume]

[QUOTE=Socialite;1021130]

So this goes back to the question, then, you believe it's possible (and expected) that a Christian be sinless after they've come to faith in Christ?

Not sinless in the sense of not possessing the moral force in our lives. But sinless in the sense of not committing sins.

Paul says, if you walk in the Spirit you live a life pleasing to God. But not all the time do we all walk in the Spirit. We have moments where our flesh gets the best of us.

Right! But does that mean it is not possible to do it all the time?

I really want to know if you believe in triumphalism or not.

Not sure. I believe what Paul said. lol

I disagree that this was Paul's aim in Romans 6. The message of Grace was so forceful --- we are no longer positionally viewed by God as sinners. We are seen through the atoning work of Jesus. Positionally, we are no longer sinners. But just as all of creation, including us, is waiting for that final day of redemption, this is a perfect example of "already, not yet" Pauline eschatology.

Paul blew folks out of the water at the start of Rom 6, after saying grace abounds more where sin abounds. He said it does not mean we should sin so grace can abound, but that we simply do not continue in sin. Many water that down to mean we really are not continuing in sin if we have an urge to do good more than not. But face it. he spoke of continuing in sin -- period.

Maybe this will help. I agree totally with Watchman Nee's position that he detailed in THE NORMAL CHRISTIAN LIFE. We can stop sinning. In mind and body. And I believe this is Paul's point because Paul actually said we have the same degree of victory over sin as much as Christ did. But He did not compare it to Christ BEFORE his resurrection, but AFTER! And Paul was trying to exchange expectations. To expect to sin is to find a way to do it. Paul changes that expectation to his readers.

For that reason, Rom 8:11-13 is actually contrasting a note mentioned in Rom 6:12. We are not to let sin reign in our mortal bodies, but rather let the Holy Ghost quicken our mortal bodies. This is not the future resurrection in view here. I know this because Rom 8:12-13 says that the benefit of this quickening causes us to not live after the flesh, but instead mortify the fleshly deeds. That is Gal 5 all over again! The lusts of the flesh we do not fulfill are the deeds of the body we mortify!

Bottom line: there are no Christians without sin.

I agree. That is the MORAL FORCE, though. It is in us. And as soon as we cease walking after the spirit, it overcomes us! But this law, though existent in our flesh, can be OVERIDDEN by the law of the Spirit of Life. One many said it was like the law of aerodynamics. So long as we reside in a certain aerodynamically shaped vessel that is in motion, we overcome the law of gravity. As soon as we vacate that vessel, the law of gravity takes over us. Same with sin. While we live in reliance upon the Spirit for empowerment, as per Ro 6:13, we overcome the law of sin and death. As soon as we abandon that reliance and walk, we succumb to the force of sin again. It is always there, as much as gravity exists all the while we're in a plane.

I think that's important so people don't carry the weight of condemnation when they do sin.

I do not think Paul was saying that, though. I think he meant the condemnation that DOES come when we sin can be averted by learning to walk after the Spirit and not to sin!

Seriously, does this not seem more victorious? Add to that the fact that Paul did not say we could not maintain a walk after the Spirit, regardless of how can or cannot. Potentially, it is there!

And perfectionism expectations yields that. I can encourage people "walk in the Spirit" and not "fulfill the lusts of the flesh" and still tell them that " if you sin... you have an advocate." I believe this was Paul's words as well

I do not think Paul focused on the "if you do sin" aspect as you state, but John certainly did in 1 John 2!

Without getting into Maryology, or the RCC, I still find your comment unfounded. Undoubtedly, some view theology itself as brain candy -- OP, Calvinists, Arminians, Catholics, Jews, Mormons, JW's, Atheists, etc You name it.

I agree. But focusing on things like mariolatry, I maintain my statement.

[Socialite]

Originally Posted by mfblume

Yes!

But the BODY OF DEATH was termed so because Paul saw that sin (the moral force) was IN that body, internally, and he seemingly felt he could not escape it aside from actually DYING and leaving that body! He spoke of the body in those terms in his hypothetical state of ANY person who is saved and does not know they can walk after the Spirit. He described what a person saved will experience when they do not realize what life will be lived when one tries to live by LAW to serve God, rather than newness of the Spirit.

And note what Paul said! THERE IS A DELIVERANCE from the body of death! He thanked God for that deliverance that comes THROUGH JESUS CHRIST, which is basically what he said in Rom 7:4.

I have long considered this part of Paul's words. I know there is more to it than I can presently grasp. But somehow, by revelation of our death with Christ, we are delivered from our bodies by PROXY, so to speak. This occurs when we know that Christ's death that led to His resurrection is actually our deaths which were meant to lead us to experience a resurrection ("present yourselves alive from the dead" - Ro 6:13) while in mortal bodies (Rom 8:11-13).



I agree. But even THAT can be overcome.



We always need the cross in this life, for sure. That is because carrying our crosses and denying ourselves is the same thing as saying we walk after the Spirit to not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. The cross slays flesh so as to cause us to receive empowerment of resurrection Life from the Spirit. That empowerment causes us to not sin.



Right. But revelation and spiritual maturity through Paul's revelation causes this to occur experientially.



YES WE ARE! Again, read the last two verses of Rom 7. Paul said HE thanked God he was already delivered through Christ and the cross, which is what he was trying to teach in Rom 6.



But the Word does not describe us like that. Granted it is a humbling effort, but I think it goes against Paul's focus in Romans.

Blume, both Romans 6 and 12 make it clear that we are no longer slaves to sin but slaves to righteousness. I don't dispute that.

What is sounds like is there is an anxiety when someone suggests that Christians don't still sin -- fearing that this will be license for people to willfully commit sin. This is probably the similar argument Paul was beating-to-the-punch in Romans 6-7, after his wonderful articulation of Grace in the preceding chapters. The way Paul said it, the cross covers us historically, presently and in the future. Christ did it! So the reaction is, "well then should we just continue to sin?"

It should also be noted that "living in sin" is not the same as one who lives a life in the Spirit, but sins. This is hard to splice out in technical terms, but not so ambiguous when we see what this looks like (a committed vs. a uncommitted believer).

The reality of being freed from sin, and the "experiential" reality increasingly match as we are sanctified, but don't always.

Otherwise, I make the Spirit and Paul a liar --- because I often become aware when sin is in my heart... and even when I act upon it. And it's almost daily! At the same time, most would not view my life as one "lived in the flesh." And God views me as righteous, since I'm in Christ. So, if we are freed from death, sin no longer having reign on us, in the sense that it's no longer possible, and that's expected of Christ, then I can't be so sure I'm even saved! Can you???

I don't propose an encouragement to sin -- in fact, I'd say the reality of the Spirit working in our lives, should produce good, obedient fruit. But I find it necessary to assure believers that they aren't sub-Christian when they sin, because they will. And He still loves them and doesn't condemn them (Rom 8). We have an advocate with the Father.


“If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.” 1 John 1:8.

Anyone who says they have not sinned is living a lie. In the verse above you must notice John adds himself into the mix of sinners. He says if we say we have no sin. “No” in the Greek is “ou” and is expressed absolutely, and emphatically.

John is addressing believers “In Christ”, not the unsaved. Here in this verse John tells us if we claim we have not sinned we make Jesus Christ a liar. John tells us His (God's) word cannot be in someone who says they have never sinned, or even in those who claim now that, because they are saved, they no longer sin. Again John places himself in the middle of this assertion by using the words “we” and “us”

“If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.” 1 John 1:10.

“My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:” 1 John 2:1.
Can you see what a contradiction this verse is when we neglect the exegeses of the scriptures? “My little children” is referring to born again believers and John wants us to fully understand that point. When we compare “That ye sin not” to the previous verse we can see John isn’t advocating sinning. He’s simply telling us to turn away from habitual sin. In other words don’t let our whole focus in life be on one big sin party without thought of the consequences. If that be your case, salvation has eluded you.