We have to Be perfect in order to make heaven

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

You said "you don't know." Ok, Now, that MTD has told us how can we can know with certainty if we do xyz, do you now know with certainty that u're gonna be in the kingdom?

Do you simply not understand what is said?

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Can we know we are going to make it into the Kingdom? Certainly! How?

4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 1 John 4:17

If we are like Jesus we can have boldness in the day of judgment. If we are not like HIM we have no assurance of the Kingdom.

Hey MTD, are you like Jesus now?
If yes, how do you know?

[Michael The Disciple]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Hey MTD, are you like Jesus now?
If yes, how do you know?

This is how we can know if we are like Jesus and if we really know him.

2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 1 John 2:2-6

Everyone single person who is IN CHRIST should be walking EVEN AS HE WALKED. Anyone who does not keep his commandments is a liar and there is no truth in him. Amen? If we do keep his commands he says he knows us.

[NotforSale]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

This is how we can know if we are like Jesus and if we really know him.

2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 1 John 2:2-6

Everyone single person who is IN CHRIST should be walking EVEN AS HE WALKED. Anyone who does not keep his commandments is a liar and there is no truth in him. Amen? If we do keep his commands he says he knows us.

Could you please list ALL of the Commandments...(with the meaning of each one, if you don't mind).

Oh, and don't forget that one about Adultery; no more looking at that nice butt, Mikey!! (I dare you to say, "I don't look!")

The eyes of a man are forever bound by sexual attraction, and lust will follow us to the grave. The most Stoic Apostolic has a heart full of secrets.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Hey MTD, are you like Jesus now?
If yes, how do you know?

I suggest the walk on water test. lol

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Michael The Disciple

Can we know we are going to make it into the Kingdom? Certainly! How?

4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 1 John 4:17

If we are like Jesus we can have boldness in the day of judgment. If we are not like HIM we have no assurance of the Kingdom.

Are you like Him because YOU are exactly like Him in behavior? That means that you have to claim that not only are you now sinless...but also that you have never sinned. Thus being like Jesus is an impossibility. Unless...He imputes His likeness and nature to you by virtue of your faith because He dwells in you and you in Him. Now your nature has changed, you are a new creature. Sure, your behaviors don't always line up with your nature, but you are what you are. For example, when my son was born I didn't hope he'd become a human being. He was a human being by birth. Even when he acts like a little animal, he's a human being. Same with the believer. The believer has been "born again" a new creation. You are a saint, a child of God, a partaker in the divine nature. All the holiness and righteousness of Jesus Christ is imputed to you. You are one with Him. What He is... you are. And what you are... He was upon that cross. Oneness. It's more than a theology... it's the grand revelation of what it means to be a Christian. Sure, your behaviors don't always line up with the nature that dwells in you. But that is why your mind must be renewed through the Word of God. It aligns your soul and your spirit, making you whole in Christ. Your spirit is already regenerated, sanctified, and holy by virtue of His indwelling presence. It's your soul, your mind, that needs to become tuned into this reality by appropriating your idenity in Christ Jesus by faith. When you don't behave like a saint, your walking after the flesh. Appropriate who you are in Christ Jesus by BELIEVING what the Bible says you are. Reshape your mind, your way of thinking, put on the mind of Jesus Christ. Then you'll experience victory. This truth also illustrates why the Bible speaks of us being sanctified in Christ, past tense... and why it also speaks of the process of sanctification, on going. Your spirit is regenerated, sanctified, sealed, delivered. It's your soul, your mind, that needs to be sanctified daily by the Word of God so that you can be 100% who you are in Christ Jesus.

If I live in contual sin... or if I depart from the faith... I was never truly a part of Christ's body. You have reason to question if I ever allowed Christ to fully regenerate me. Because God will always finish what He started.

I cannot glory in anything but the cross. My works are produced out of His abiding presence and my love for Him. They don't earn my salvation at all. In fact... they cannot.

[mfblume]

I think I know part of the reason people reject true and genuine grace without works. They do not believe Jesus actually died AS US, which is what FOR US actually means. God considers US DEAD when Christ died. Just as though we were on that cross ourselves. It would be interesting to see if co-death with Christ is just a pretend story to encourage us in the minds of those who promote works as much as they do, or if they really believe GOD SAW US ON THE CROSS DYING.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

So you "ain't" Jesus!

No, I’m not. But Jesus lives in me, and I in Him. And the good news is, if you’ve received His Spirit, you are one with Him too.

Scripture is truth and you don't like it.

You search the Scriptures thinking that “in them” you have eternal life, but they are that which testify of Him. HE is the way, the truth, and the life, and no one comes unto the Father but by HIM.

Man is incapable of being perfect not of simply doing good.

Man is “perfect” in Christ Jesus. To say that a man isn’t, is to say that Christ isn’t perfect.

LOL seriously you need to learn what justice/righteousness is and it is not Reformed doctrines view of impartation like Lutzer and Sproul teach.

Tell me what you think justice and righteousness is.

Conerning your comment. It is true but it depends on what it is in reference to. Technically it is wrong. Righteousness is imparted by the very Word of God or his divine expression in any form. The law was the righteousness of God. EVen reformed teachers teach that.

Righteousness isn’t found in anything but a person, His name is Jesus. The Law revealed the holiness of God and demanded exactly what was necessary for a man to line up with God’s absolute holiness. The result…a curse. No man could keep the Law because no man is God. So the Law leaves men under the curse of condemnation, corning all men, forcing them to confess that they are sinners who are hopelessly lost without a Savior. The Laws purpose was never to make men righteous or holy, the Laws purpose was to be a schoolmaster to break man, forcing man to realize his need of a Savior. Those who believe that they are made righteous by keeping the Law have fallen from grace. For if righteousness could come from obeying the Law, Christ died in vain.

From that previous point to this you are talking about two different realities and point of Paul and confusing it with others.

There are many opinions on this from many different theologians. Tell me the absolute truth on this oh great one.

In myself no I cannot do what God demands as I am flesh and I am spirit and I cannot in myself know God's perfection and how to do justice toward all. The reason Christ died has many aspects but it has nothing to do with negating practical righteousness to the leading of God will how we are judged to receive eternal life. Justice toward sin could not be acheived by the law to those who had faith. Christ had to obtain that authority of which the LAW was a shadow of. We recieve the righteousness of Christ in two ways. Perfection to do God's will by the Spirit and forgiveness of sin by a new covenant of which CHrist is head in which he imparts his nature/righteousness to us which is his LEADING to do. Instead of on stone it is by his Spirit in which we realize perfection. Not a forensic justification for eternity at faith but practical justification by our response to his leading. THAT is what prophecy says.

No where do I deny that the Spirit leads the believer into righteousness. But that righteousness isn’t the believer’s…it’s the indwelling Christ’s. The believer’s old nature was nailed to the cross with the Law. The believer is dead, buried, and raised again with Christ. It is no longer the believer who lives…but Christ who lives in the believer. The believer is ever drawn closer to Christ by the Spirit…until the believer’s very heartbeat is the heartbeat of Christ. The righteousness that the believer receives is Christ’s very own, not the believers, and it happens judicially in an instant when one receives the Holy Ghost. Sanctification is the process wherein one becomes aligned with the imputed righteousness of Christ.

It wuld be semi-pelagianism. Oh and that would be the view of the first centuries of the church Mr. GREEK FATHERS!

It’s legalism.

Really... Yes we are righteous because if we FOLLOW we will DO righteous because HE is righteous. LOL

That’s self righteousness. We are righteous because of Christ’s abiding presence. We are sanctified as we yield to the very Spirit of the indwelling Christ as He leads.

Really... That would be because the context of the message is to receive covenant standing by faith in his work. I am already seen right of heart before covenant standing when a person believes. That does not mean I have received salvation yet though nor does simply believing have I been forgiven and removed from me. Nor does it mean I have been born again. Simple belief is a "righteous thing" but it doesn't mean I am in right standing concerning my sins etc...

I believe we’d both agree…faith without works is dead. We show our faith by our works. And it is by that faith that we saved to do good works. Not saved by good works.

You child seeing a "accident" immediately turned to be cleansed. Also I would have issue with

1) knowlege to do vs intentional.

Even if my son intentionally stepped into a mess, would I not cleanse him the moment he came running to me? Accidental or intentional…our Father cleanses us from our sins. The prodigal intentionally left and found himself in a pigs pen. Rehearsing how he would plead and beg for forgiveness, offering to be a mere servant, he made his way home to what he believed would be an angry father. Instead, when the young man’s father saw him on the road, the prodigal’s father took off running to embrace him. How filth on his son’s clothing must have smelled. Yet the son’s father embraced him. And before the prodigal could say his speech, the father gave the order to slay the fattened calf, and began a celebration. It was the self righteous obedient son who couldn’t understand his father’s grace. Note, the father didn’t even ask for an apology. The story isn’t about forgiveness…but unconditional acceptance upon return.

The nature is the ABIDING Spirit and Jesus clearly teaches how abiding works. Paul also clearly teaches it. If you follow/led by which is a active realization of response you are children of God. That is a practical response to the righteousness/leading of the Spirit in which we are judged positionally.

Legalism.

If he follows he is ONE.

Even after the prodigal left, the father never ceased being the prodigal’s father. Your view of God would have had God slam the door and disown him until he came back begging for forgiveness. Our God is better than that. It’s a vile take on God.

They feel conviction yes and the law brought convicion as well as does ALL KNOWLEDGE!

Read your Bible. The Spirit brings conviction, the Law brings condemnation.

Maybe maybe not.

Are you implying that a true child of God may choose not to? A true child of God will seek righteousness. However, should he grow cold and fall into sin…the issue isn’t the sin…the issue is that he broke fellowship with Christ Jesus. The answer isn’t behavior modification. The answer is that he needs to become one with the vine again, allowing Christ’s life to flow through him producing the “fruit of the Spirit”.

Partially true. you are making absolutes of black and white conversion and that is not the case NOR is it what scripture teaches. People are given the righteousness/spirit/nature of christ but that does not mean they remain and follow him. Grace is the impartation of the Spirit TO DO the will of God.

Yes…but not to do the will of God through self, but through Christ.

YES IF I choose to CONTINUE TO FOLLOW! Because a person has received the knowledge/righteousness/leading/nature of the Spirit does not mean I will continue. I choose to be a SERVANT. His impartation of the Spirit does not make me obey.

The Spirit doesn’t make you obey…it makes you a new creature. Being a new creation, you will desire obedience. His Spirit dwelling within you and His Law written upon your heart. You now partake in His nature. When you don’t obey, guilt, shame, and conviction will grip your soul. Those feelings are evidence that your actions are not congruent with the new nature abiding in you. If you didn’t have a new nature, like a sow wallowing in filth, you’d think little of it.

God giving you righteousness by Spirit vs writen code does not change how God does justice toward mans response. You are righeous because God leads you and you CHOOSE to walk by faith. The discipline is the SPIRIT. How in the world can you make the two not the same. LOL The law of the SPIRIT is our discipline and it is our righteousness by HIM who is the source of the righteousness. If we don't obey are not righteous.

Are you saying that a person must be absolutely perfect and in line with the Law of God before death, or they are lost? For example, let’s say a believer is driving to work and after being cut off in traffic becomes upset and curses at the other driver. Then suddenly they are crushed by a semi whose driver lost control. Is that person damned??? God demands ABSOLUTE PERFECTION AND HOLINESS. Unless this believer is hidden in Christ, he has no hope. In fact, if we are not hidden in Christ, none of us have any hope.

TO BE CONTINUED....

[Aquila]

CONTINUED...

Do you know that Christ was that believer’s propitiation? That means that EVERY bit of the Father’s wrath that could ever be against this believer was poured out upon Jesus Christ upon the cross. The Father’s holy justice has been satisfied. Jesus died in the believer’s place. Christ became sin that we might become the righteousness of Christ. Jesus didn’t have to sin to become sin…nor do we have to DO RIGHTEOUSNESS to become righteous. Righteousness is imputed upon us just as our sins were laid upon the Savior. It is an exchange performed by God. Once one receives the Holy Ghost, their spirit is regenerated, they are a new creature, they now have the abiding Spirit, and they are now partakers in Christ’s nature. In an instant. However, though the spirit has been regenerated by the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ, the mind of a person is still thinking in the old carnal fleshly patterns. It must be renewed to bring the believer’s mind into harmony with the believer’s spirit. In this way one is righteous by virtue of the regeneration received through the indwelling Holy Spirit, and is also being made righteous through sanctification. Sanctification is the process in which the believer’s mind is renewed through the Word of God bringing right thoughts, right desires, right vision, and thereby producing good works. So a believer’s spirit is righteous…because it is regenerated by the Holy Spirit. The believer is also becoming righteous, by virtue of the sanctification resulting from the mind being renewed.

If I placed five million dollars in your bank account…would you look at your empty hands and claim that you are not a millionaire? The spirit of a man is regenerated and made alive and holy after receiving the Holy Ghost. Just because his mind has yet to appropriate that reality and he acts out of character with regards to that new nature, it doesn’t mean that the believer isn’t righteous.

Their works give them if led by the Spirit God's consideration and judgment of being "right of heart." If they are doing it through the flesh they will fail.

Not so. Many men are practicing fleshly religion quite successfully. Basically because they define righteousness by their said religion. It’s easy to be righteous when you can pick and choose the Laws you follow. The point is…if a man believes he must keep the Law to be righteous…he must keep ALL of the Law.

IF what you said is true then you are deceivd. HOW in the WORLD can a BY FLESH seeking righteousness put to shame the righteousness of someone who is led by the SPirit?

There are Muslims and Hindus whose “righteousness” far exceeds the righteousness of Christians if we gauge “behavior” and outward standards. The point is…religious disciplines are not what will make one righteous. Righteousness is imputed to the believer by the very presence of the indwelling Christ. A born again Christian who is struggling with smoking and a pornography habit that they are prayerfully seeking deliverance from is righteous and holy in God’s sight because Jesus died in that man’s place. Judicially, Jesus bore every sin that man has ever committed or will commit, and died in His place. Jesus took every ounce of God’s wrath toward that man’s sins and received it in Himself. Jesus was executed in that man’s place. Jesus became sin that this struggling believer might believe and become the righteousness of God. This struggling believer is righteous and holy (set apart) in God’s sight, though he’s struggling with his sanctification. If a devout Muslim who was clad in modesty, clean in all speech, faithful in all dealings, prayerful (beyond five times a day), faithful to his wife, and kind and compassionate towards his children…the struggling saint is still righteous and holy in God’s sight and the Muslim is condemned where he stands. The struggling believer will do well to look to Christ’s cross for his righteousness, and witness to Christ’s Gospel to that faithful Muslim.

Having a new nature imparted does not make me righteous in itself. It allows me to now the will of God. I am righteous IF I do the will of him that is in me not simply because HE is in me.

Again, if I dropped five million dollars in your bank account…would you look at your empty hands and claim you weren’t a millionaire until you went out and worked for it? You might not understand that I dropped that into your account and that you’re a millionaire. You might not believe that I dropped that into your account and that you’re really a millionaire. Here’s the deal… as long as you don’t believe you’re a millionaire, you’ll never tap into that account and begin living like one. We are justified by faith, allowing us to come forward and receive remission of sins and the Holy Ghost (not always in this order). Christ became sin (our sin) for us that the righteousness of Christ might be imputed to us, and then we stand righteous in God’s sight. Not in our righteousness, but in Christ’s righteousness. The very Spirit of Christ comes to indwell us at Holy Ghost baptism and our spirits are regenerated, making us new creatures. Now, our mind needs to be renewed. And if we do not understand what has been deposited in us…or we do not choose to believe what is deposited in us, we will not begin acting in accordance to the new nature of which we have partaken. When you look into the mirror…realize something, own it, reckon it to be so, embrace it, accept it in faith…you are already righteous and holy in God’s sight. No, it’s not your righteousness, you have a LONG way to go…and you’ll NEVER be as righteous and holy as God (what’s demanded). Instead, you stand clothed in Christ’s righteousness. Your mind may still need renewed so that you might begin acting in accordance to the nature inside you. But you are righteous and holy. Now… IF you choose to walk way from Christ, and denounce Him, refusing to have your mind renewed… backsliding occurs. The first step down this slope is resisting the Spirit. Resisting that Spirit led conviction that gnaws in the pit of your stomach when you’ve done wrong. Then one begins to quench the Spirit by stifling all promptings to repent. This leads to grieving the Spirit, making the Spirit sorrowful and placing the Spirit at odds with the believer. One can then begin insulting the Spirit of God, rejecting the blood of Christ. Finally…one can fully turn and blaspheme the Holy Spirit, condemning them to eternal damnation. The example of this functioning as a progression is very general.

He is if I choose him not because he is there compelling me.

Yes, you must choose to die to self and allow Christ to live His life through you. We agree.

Uh for now I will say NO as I am unsure what your whole meaning is behind this statement.

If the Christain knows...

1) If they are struggling to do. They need to pray and fast and seek the elders of the church and the body and lean on God for his strength in the time of temptation. If they continue to fail most likely they are simply appeasing the flesh that... hey I tried. If you love me you will obey my commandments. He has not given us anything we cannot overcome. We don't dwell in sin.

I’d like to know your answer. I’ll share my thoughts afterwards. We both might be able to take away something from the other’s answer to this question.

Take a close look at this Luke. The question was…

Let me ask you a question. It will fully reveal if you’re looking at this legalistically, or biblically. How does a saint of God who is struggling with Christian disciplines and sin increase their love for Jesus, thereby bringing a life that is congruent with the new nature imparted to them?

You’re answer to how the Christian can increase his or her love God is as follows. They must:

1.) Pray.
2.) Fast.
3.) Seek assistance from the elders of the church and the body.
4.) Lean on God for His strength in time of temptation.

Do you notice anything consistent? Do you see anything missing?

The consistent thing is that your answer is that the believer needs to perform a bunch of religious duties. Prayer, fasting, assistance, and leaning on God’s strength to act or behave a certain way. All these things are good things. And I’ll admit, I’ve advised almost the very same thing. The only thing that comes close to the answer I’m now seeing is leaning on God for His strength in time of temptation. The problem with the answer in how you presented it is that…you don’t tell us how this believer is to lean on God’s strength. It’s ambiguous. And in my experience if they ask how to do so, we begin running in circles…just pray, fast, and seek assistance again. And so now they are on the hamster’s wheel of legalistic, performance based religion.

You really never mentioned... the atoning work of Jesus.

TO BE CONTINUED...

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Aquila

CONTINUED...

Do you know that Christ was that believer’s propitiation? That means that EVERY bit of the Father’s wrath that could ever be against this believer was poured out upon Jesus Christ upon the cross. The Father’s holy justice has been satisfied. Jesus died in the believer’s place. Christ became sin that we might become the righteousness of Christ. Jesus didn’t have to sin to become sin…nor do we have to DO RIGHTEOUSNESS to become righteous. Righteousness is imputed upon us just as our sins were laid upon the Savior. It is an exchange performed by God. Once one receives the Holy Ghost, their spirit is regenerated, they are a new creature, they now have the abiding Spirit, and they are now partakers in Christ’s nature. In an instant. However, though the spirit has been regenerated by the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ, the mind of a person is still thinking in the old carnal fleshly patterns. It must be renewed to bring the believer’s mind into harmony with the believer’s spirit. In this way one is righteous by virtue of the regeneration received through the indwelling Holy Spirit, and is also being made righteous through sanctification. Sanctification is the process in which the believer’s mind is renewed through the Word of God bringing right thoughts, right desires, right vision, and thereby producing good works. So a believer’s spirit is righteous…because it is regenerated by the Holy Spirit. The believer is also becoming righteous, by virtue of the sanctification resulting from the mind being renewed.

If I placed five million dollars in your bank account…would you look at your empty hands and claim that you are not a millionaire? The spirit of a man is regenerated and made alive and holy after receiving the Holy Ghost. Just because his mind has yet to appropriate that reality and he acts out of character with regards to that new nature, it doesn’t mean that the believer isn’t righteous.



Not so. Many men are practicing fleshly religion quite successfully. Basically because they define righteousness by their said religion. It’s easy to be righteous when you can pick and choose the Laws you follow. The point is…if a man believes he must keep the Law to be righteous…he must keep ALL of the Law.



There are Muslims and Hindus whose “righteousness” far exceeds the righteousness of Christians if we gauge “behavior” and outward standards. The point is…religious disciplines are not what will make one righteous. Righteousness is imputed to the believer by the very presence of the indwelling Christ. A born again Christian who is struggling with smoking and a pornography habit that they are prayerfully seeking deliverance from is righteous and holy in God’s sight because Jesus died in that man’s place. Judicially, Jesus bore every sin that man has ever committed or will commit, and died in His place. Jesus took every ounce of God’s wrath toward that man’s sins and received it in Himself. Jesus was executed in that man’s place. Jesus became sin that this struggling believer might believe and become the righteousness of God. This struggling believer is righteous and holy (set apart) in God’s sight, though he’s struggling with his sanctification. If a devout Muslim who was clad in modesty, clean in all speech, faithful in all dealings, prayerful (beyond five times a day), faithful to his wife, and kind and compassionate towards his children…the struggling saint is still righteous and holy in God’s sight and the Muslim is condemned where he stands. The struggling believer will do well to look to Christ’s cross for his righteousness, and witness to Christ’s Gospel to that faithful Muslim.



Again, if I dropped five million dollars in your bank account…would you look at your empty hands and claim you weren’t a millionaire until you went out and worked for it? You might not understand that I dropped that into your account and that you’re a millionaire. You might not believe that I dropped that into your account and that you’re really a millionaire. Here’s the deal… as long as you don’t believe you’re a millionaire, you’ll never tap into that account and begin living like one. We are justified by faith, allowing us to come forward and receive remission of sins and the Holy Ghost (not always in this order). Christ became sin (our sin) for us that the righteousness of Christ might be imputed to us, and then we stand righteous in God’s sight. Not in our righteousness, but in Christ’s righteousness. The very Spirit of Christ comes to indwell us at Holy Ghost baptism and our spirits are regenerated, making us new creatures. Now, our mind needs to be renewed. And if we do not understand what has been deposited in us…or we do not choose to believe what is deposited in us, we will not begin acting in accordance to the new nature of which we have partaken. When you look into the mirror…realize something, own it, reckon it to be so, embrace it, accept it in faith…you are already righteous and holy in God’s sight. No, it’s not your righteousness, you have a LONG way to go…and you’ll NEVER be as righteous and holy as God (what’s demanded). Instead, you stand clothed in Christ’s righteousness. Your mind may still need renewed so that you might begin acting in accordance to the nature inside you. But you are righteous and holy. Now… IF you choose to walk way from Christ, and denounce Him, refusing to have your mind renewed… backsliding occurs. The first step down this slope is resisting the Spirit. Resisting that Spirit led conviction that gnaws in the pit of your stomach when you’ve done wrong. Then one begins to quench the Spirit by stifling all promptings to repent. This leads to grieving the Spirit, making the Spirit sorrowful and placing the Spirit at odds with the believer. One can then begin insulting the Spirit of God, rejecting the blood of Christ. Finally…one can fully turn and blaspheme the Holy Spirit, condemning them to eternal damnation. The example of this functioning as a progression is very general.



Yes, you must choose to die to self and allow Christ to live His life through you. We agree.

WOW imputation doctrine never saw that coming. Look up Jesse Morrell on youtube on imputation. Here is a link....


http://www.youtube.com/user/OpenAirO.../1/QSTa3uGdbhY

If the bold is true then you have issues identifying true Christians nor do you understand the argument.