Uncertainty of salvation comes from placing one's trust in self and not Christ. Such a one is already set up for failure. Get your eyes off yourself and turn your eyes upon Jesus. Then the things of this world will grow strangely dim. ;-)
Won't you, like, trip over stuff?
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Hey MTD, are you like Jesus now?
If yes, how do you know?
This is how we can know if we are like Jesus and if we really know him.
2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 1 John 2:2-6
Everyone single person who is IN CHRIST should be walking EVEN AS HE WALKED. Anyone who does not keep his commandments is a liar and there is no truth in him. Amen? If we do keep his commands he says he knows us.
The scriptures do not teach this takes years Mike.
6:1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?
6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? Romans 6:1-2
Romans is written as proof that my words fit the picture. These believers did not know, let alone experience, the fact that they can live above sinning. The knowing, reckoning and yielding takes time to be established by renewing our minds. It does not happen as soon as we're saved since we have to grow in grace and knowledge.
Quote:
Looks like hes saying its something we can do from the time we believe doesnt it?
No it does not. The POTENTIAL is there due to the finished work of the cross, but to appropriate it is another thing since we are too used to running on self energy.
Quote:
A new creation can cease from sin. The unsaved will never stop. Those who at least claim salvation yet do not walk by faith in Gods word will always be up and down again. His question is how people who have tasted Gods grace can keep on sinning.
That is not the issue. The issue is learning how to walk after the Spirit. This takes teaching. It is too ingrained in ourselves to do it on our own power for it to occur as soon as a believer is born.
Quote:
Look who Peter addresses.
2:1 Wherefore laying aside all malice, and all guile, and hypocrisies, and envies, all evil speakings,
2:2 As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby: 1 Peter 2:1-2
Newborn babes are expected to lay aside even the "inner sins".
Notice that newborn babes HAVE THESE PROBLEMS which is why Peter told them these words. No newborn does not have these problems. They have to grow out of that state, showing that newborns will be unable to live victoriously until they GROW and are no longer newborns.
Quote:
We have set the standard of Christs teaching far to low.
I agree! But it is not possible for newborns to live victoriously since they have too much junk in their thinking with their unrenewed minds.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
This is how we can know if we are like Jesus and if we really know him.
2:3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
2:5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
2:6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 1 John 2:2-6
Everyone single person who is IN CHRIST should be walking EVEN AS HE WALKED. Anyone who does not keep his commandments is a liar and there is no truth in him. Amen? If we do keep his commands he says he knows us.
Could you please list ALL of the Commandments...(with the meaning of each one, if you don't mind).
Oh, and don't forget that one about Adultery; no more looking at that nice butt, Mikey!! (I dare you to say, "I don't look!")
The eyes of a man are forever bound by sexual attraction, and lust will follow us to the grave. The most Stoic Apostolic has a heart full of secrets.
You said "you don't know." Ok, Now, that MTD has told us how can we can know with certainty if we do xyz, do you now know with certainty that u're gonna be in the kingdom?
How does a saint of God who is struggling with Christian disciplines and sin increase their love for Jesus, thereby bringing a life that is congruent with the new nature imparted to them?
The truth is…there is nothing in the way of Christian discipline that the believer can do to increase his or her love for God. They don’t need to “do” anything. They need a revelation. “A revelation of what?” one might ask. A revelation of God’s love. Let’s take a look at a text and I’ll draw a foundational principle from it:
I John 4:7-19
{4:7} Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God;
and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
{4:8} He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
{4:9} In this was manifested the love of God toward us,
because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world,
that we might live through him. {4:10} Herein is love, not
that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son [to
be] the propitiation for our sins. {4:11} Beloved, if God so
loved us, we ought also to love one another. {4:12} No man
hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God
dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us. {4:13}
Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us,
because he hath given us of his Spirit. {4:14} And we have
seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son [to be] the
Saviour of the world. {4:15} Whosoever shall confess that
Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in
God. {4:16} And we have known and believed the love that
God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love
dwelleth in God, and God in him. {4:17} Herein is our love
made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of
judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. {4:18}
There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear:
because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made
perfect in love. {4:19} We love him, because he first loved
us.
Notice the last verse in the text, “We love him, because he first loved us.” We don’t begin with more disciplines and behavior modification (legalism). We begin with turning to Scripture to get a revelation of God’s love towards us. Why? Because we only love Him… as a result of Him shedding His love lavishly upon us. When a struggling believer begins to get a revelation of how much God loves them, How God Himself bore all their sins upon the cross. How Jesus Christ became the object of God’s wrath on their behalf. How they are justified purely by faith, and adopted in as a son or daughter. When they realize that their Heavenly Father is indeed, “Abba father”, the condemnation and fear is lifted. There is no fear in love. If one is made to fear God as though there never was a cross…they can never be made perfect in their love for God. They fear Him as an abusive, threatening, violent father who might be provoked to beat them when they mess up or make wrong decisions. As we begin to understand God’s love…our love for Him will naturally grow in response. And the more we understand God’s love…the more we will in turn love Him. And as our love is perfected in understanding Him and His love, our behaviors will change…and we will have renewed our mind, aligning it with God’s revelation, thus producing a desire for greater sanctification.
Here’s a real life example. This college aged kid in church was expressing that he was struggling with temptations to drink on the weekends with his peers. More times than not, he gave into the temptation and went partying with them. He wanted to read his Bible and pray more, but he didn’t feel motivated enough to do it. He just wanted to love God more, but didn’t know how to do it. The brothers in our cell group advised him to institute a “quiet time” for prayer every morning. They also advised him to change the music he listened to and advised him to set aside 15 minutes a night for Bible reading. Then they assigned him an “accountability partner” to break his knee caps if he failed (Just kidding! Lol). They meant well…but they put him under bondage. As he tried to perform the duties on their “little list” (read “Law”) he found that occasionally he’d sleep to late for the quiet time he committed to. Sometimes he’d get tired and go to sleep before his 15 minute Bible reading. When his “accountability partner”, Guido the Killer Christian, called him to see if he was abiding by the list, the brother lied and said he was praying and reading his Bible every day. The result? CONDEMNATION. The Law always brings condemnation because no one can keep it indefinitely. Needless to say, this caused him to shy away from prayer time even more. He also became afraid to read the Bible, because when he read it, all he saw was that God was angry at him and displeased with him. God was becoming like a bitter, angry, and demanding father in his eyes. The first cell group meeting of last month he ditched. Just didn’t show up. So I decided to call him, though I’m not the “religious policeman” assigned to him. We talked. I asked him why he didn’t come. He said, “Because I can’t do it. I can’t be a Christian. I just don’t love God enough. I can’t stop doing the things that I know He doesn’t want me to do.” I said, “Do you know what God wants more than that?” He said “What?” I said, “God just wants you to know how much He loves you.” From there we began to talk about God’s love. How God loved us…while we were yet sinners. How Jesus became our propitiation. I looked up the definition of propitiation and read it to him. We talked about how Jesus Himself was the object of God’s wrath on his behalf. Yes…Jesus was punished for every mistake this brother would ever make to satisfy the demands of God’s holy justice. I then said, “So how could God be angry with you? His anger was already poured out on Christ?” This kid then said, “He did that for me?” I said, “Yes. And he did it once and for all.” He was silent. I could hear a sniffle over the phone as he tried to hide the fact that he was crying. I encouraged him to come back to the cell group. When he did, to my surprise he confessed about lying. He explained that he just didn’t want them to see him as a failure. I committed myself to doing something privately. Every time I see this brother, I’m saying, “He did it all for you.” Guess what…last time we talked he was sharing something he read in his Bible. What led him to begin reading? A desire to know the God who loves him so much, He’d die to redeem him. His love is growing, as a result of a revelation of God’s own love for him.
When we understand just how much God loves us…there’s just no way we can stand there unaffected. If we are sincerely seeking God, a revelation of how He first loved us will birth an ever deepening love for Him. All the “disciplines” will then cease to be seen as disciplines, but will become fruit of the Spirit.
All nice and everythng but missed the point I made Concerning what to do. Prayer is a general seeking of God leading WHICH GOES TO EVERYTHING YOU JUST SAID! e is the one that brngs love more perfectly than your words. He is the one that perfects the heart. You simply ignore what is involved so you can run off on whatever you want. I have 1000 times went over love. You act lke it is a new revelation. Like you are giving some unheard of teaching.. you legalists don't get it. While Iam constantly teaching the component legal aspects you run off around in Reformed land. Knowing God brings conviction and seeking him bings conviction. Also YOU are wrong. You DO have to so something it is called SEEK. 2) HUMBLE YOURSELF and others. What is prayer? Seeking the mind of God and his leading to bring you beyond your circumstance and finding his will and becoming intimate.
Also many will KNOW the truth an have a revelation of his love and still turn away loving the world and THEMSELVES more than Christ. Your example is a person of ignorance not knowing. Which is more like a situation of initial salvation or coming to God and the knowledge of him etc...
I will respond later to the other stuff. Not everything we disagree on but you have major issues in understanding righteousness/justice and it's usage IMO.
Do you know that Christ was that believer’s propitiation? That means that EVERY bit of the Father’s wrath that could ever be against this believer was poured out upon Jesus Christ upon the cross. The Father’s holy justice has been satisfied. Jesus died in the believer’s place. Christ became sin that we might become the righteousness of Christ. Jesus didn’t have to sin to become sin…nor do we have to DO RIGHTEOUSNESS to become righteous. Righteousness is imputed upon us just as our sins were laid upon the Savior. It is an exchange performed by God. Once one receives the Holy Ghost, their spirit is regenerated, they are a new creature, they now have the abiding Spirit, and they are now partakers in Christ’s nature. In an instant. However, though the spirit has been regenerated by the indwelling of the Spirit of Christ, the mind of a person is still thinking in the old carnal fleshly patterns. It must be renewed to bring the believer’s mind into harmony with the believer’s spirit. In this way one is righteous by virtue of the regeneration received through the indwelling Holy Spirit, and is also being made righteous through sanctification. Sanctification is the process in which the believer’s mind is renewed through the Word of God bringing right thoughts, right desires, right vision, and thereby producing good works. So a believer’s spirit is righteous…because it is regenerated by the Holy Spirit. The believer is also becoming righteous, by virtue of the sanctification resulting from the mind being renewed.
If I placed five million dollars in your bank account…would you look at your empty hands and claim that you are not a millionaire? The spirit of a man is regenerated and made alive and holy after receiving the Holy Ghost. Just because his mind has yet to appropriate that reality and he acts out of character with regards to that new nature, it doesn’t mean that the believer isn’t righteous.
Not so. Many men are practicing fleshly religion quite successfully. Basically because they define righteousness by their said religion. It’s easy to be righteous when you can pick and choose the Laws you follow. The point is…if a man believes he must keep the Law to be righteous…he must keep ALL of the Law.
There are Muslims and Hindus whose “righteousness” far exceeds the righteousness of Christians if we gauge “behavior” and outward standards. The point is…religious disciplines are not what will make one righteous. Righteousness is imputed to the believer by the very presence of the indwelling Christ. A born again Christian who is struggling with smoking and a pornography habit that they are prayerfully seeking deliverance from is righteous and holy in God’s sight because Jesus died in that man’s place. Judicially, Jesus bore every sin that man has ever committed or will commit, and died in His place. Jesus took every ounce of God’s wrath toward that man’s sins and received it in Himself. Jesus was executed in that man’s place. Jesus became sin that this struggling believer might believe and become the righteousness of God. This struggling believer is righteous and holy (set apart) in God’s sight, though he’s struggling with his sanctification. If a devout Muslim who was clad in modesty, clean in all speech, faithful in all dealings, prayerful (beyond five times a day), faithful to his wife, and kind and compassionate towards his children…the struggling saint is still righteous and holy in God’s sight and the Muslim is condemned where he stands. The struggling believer will do well to look to Christ’s cross for his righteousness, and witness to Christ’s Gospel to that faithful Muslim.
Again, if I dropped five million dollars in your bank account…would you look at your empty hands and claim you weren’t a millionaire until you went out and worked for it? You might not understand that I dropped that into your account and that you’re a millionaire. You might not believe that I dropped that into your account and that you’re really a millionaire. Here’s the deal… as long as you don’t believe you’re a millionaire, you’ll never tap into that account and begin living like one. We are justified by faith, allowing us to come forward and receive remission of sins and the Holy Ghost (not always in this order). Christ became sin (our sin) for us that the righteousness of Christ might be imputed to us, and then we stand righteous in God’s sight. Not in our righteousness, but in Christ’s righteousness. The very Spirit of Christ comes to indwell us at Holy Ghost baptism and our spirits are regenerated, making us new creatures. Now, our mind needs to be renewed. And if we do not understand what has been deposited in us…or we do not choose to believe what is deposited in us, we will not begin acting in accordance to the new nature of which we have partaken. When you look into the mirror…realize something, own it, reckon it to be so, embrace it, accept it in faith…you are already righteous and holy in God’s sight. No, it’s not your righteousness, you have a LONG way to go…and you’ll NEVER be as righteous and holy as God (what’s demanded). Instead, you stand clothed in Christ’s righteousness. Your mind may still need renewed so that you might begin acting in accordance to the nature inside you. But you are righteous and holy. Now… IF you choose to walk way from Christ, and denounce Him, refusing to have your mind renewed… backsliding occurs. The first step down this slope is resisting the Spirit. Resisting that Spirit led conviction that gnaws in the pit of your stomach when you’ve done wrong. Then one begins to quench the Spirit by stifling all promptings to repent. This leads to grieving the Spirit, making the Spirit sorrowful and placing the Spirit at odds with the believer. One can then begin insulting the Spirit of God, rejecting the blood of Christ. Finally…one can fully turn and blaspheme the Holy Spirit, condemning them to eternal damnation. The example of this functioning as a progression is very general.
Yes, you must choose to die to self and allow Christ to live His life through you. We agree.
WOW imputation doctrine never saw that coming. Look up Jesse Morrell on youtube on imputation. Here is a link....
__________________
I'm (sic) not cynical, I just haven't been around long enough to be Jedi mind-tricked by politics as usual. Alas, maybe in a few years I'll be beaten back into the herd. tstew
Grace... when you've tired to live the best you can for God... and still fail.... thank God for Grace. Eph 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.KJV
Does it mean we don't try? James 2:20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?KJV
The heresy hunters are still with us. Only now, instead of stakes, they use their books and radio programs to destroy those they consider heretics.... I'm concerned that heresy hunting may be turning into leukemia because some cultwatchers seem more intent on destroying parts of the body than healing the body....
"Imputation doctrine," "Reform doctrine," "osas." What's wrong with just seeing what the bible says instead of figuring out what pigeon-hole someone's idea fits into when it differs from our own? There's so much organizational-mindedness that people do not think to see what the bible says but what their doctrinal contrivances propose and how they have to stick to them no matter the cost.
__________________ ...MY THOUGHTS, ANYWAY.
"Many Christians do not try to understand what was written in a verse in the Bible. Instead they approach the passage to prove what they already believe."
Look up Jesse Morrell on youtube on imputation. Here is a link....
Linear Mode
