We have to Be perfect in order to make heaven

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

so OSAS or ES.

No, Luke. I know you like categories. But it's more complex than that.

Also, you have your doctrinal labels wrong anyway. OSAS and ES teach that you can live like the devil and go to Heaven. The view I have is closer to the doctrine known as The Perseverance of the Saints. Meaning every true child of God will persevere through Christ's power. Those who don't may have tasted the heavenly gift, however they continued in sin and/or went out from among us because they were not of us. Therefore make your calling and election sure. Draw nearer to Christ daily, allowing HIM to live through you in the power of the Holy Ghost.

The TRUE saint of God has a new nature, they cannot continue in continual sin, nor can they themselves to separate from their Lord and Savior, because they love Him.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Aquila

No, Luke. I know you like categories. But it's more complex than that.

uh that is realtive to what you consider complex and toward what. You are the one that doesn't deal on a component level of God's justice. You simply live in a reformed theology which is inconsistent on what is justificaton in relationship to endtime judgment. REformed doctrine fails miserably when it comes to historical views of this in hebraic thought which influenced Paul.

Judgment and Justification and the Apostle Paul by Chris Vanlandingham clearly shows Pauls thinking lines up with historic Judaism on this and the view of Reformed doctrine has no case.

Also, you have your doctrinal labels wrong anyway.

No you tend to grab from both thoughts whether you know that or not. That is why I said both. They are different but you tend to have tendency for both types of doctrine in your view of grace.

OSAS and ES teach that you can live like the devil and go to Heaven. The view I have is closer to the doctrine known as The Perseverance of the Saints.

so amusing when PS in calvinism is directly tied to ES. LOL your buddy James white would rebuke you.

Meaning every true child of God will persevere through Christ's power.

Again just like reformed thought you fail and make inconsistency in the Word of God by your black and white conversion.

Those who don't may have tasted the heavenly gift, however they continued in sin and/or went out from among us because they were not of us.

You do realize you can't have both. You can't HAVE tasted without true repentance. God sees the heart. you are miss using John and his statement and trying to umbrella everyone. If they have the NATURE of Christ in them which I agree with you... you can't HAVE TASTED and have and LOSE it in yoru paradigm. Such a contradiction in your Theology especially with you imputation view. LOL

Therefore make your calling and election sure. Draw nearer to Christ daily, allowing HIM to live through you in the power of the Holy Ghost.

yeah and? Many are called(which = realized salvation as all do) few are chosen = did not endure) You view cannot accept this.

The TRUE saint of God has a new nature, they cannot continue in continual sin, nor can they themselves to separate from their Lord and Savior, because they love Him.

as I said above inconsistent asyour view = the truly called are chosen. That is not scripture nor how God reacts to the church nor what Jesus teaches.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by corvet786c

I just sometimes get scared because if Jesus is saying that to the churches back then, how much more is he saying it today to us. The apostolic church as a whole.

So should I not get scared when I sin because of grace and forgiveness. What about people apostolics who have certain addictions still??

First, ever ask yourself why you are scared? Or why your sin troubles you when the sins of so many others don't bother them?

Here's your answer...

Jesus died on the cross as your propitiation. He took upon Himself ALL your sins and received in Himself ALL of God's anger and wrath towards those sins. So when you appropriate Christ's atoning work to your life in faith and receive the Holy Ghost, Christ exchanges your old nature for a new nature. Now you have the every same divine nature of Jesus indwelling you. Your dead sinful Spirit is now regenerated, and living, where you were once dead in your sins. You are a... NEW CREATURE.

But there's a problem. Your soul (mind) still thinks according to the fleshly paradigms of that old nature of yours that was nailed to the cross. This is "the flesh", the "carnal mind". This is what you're battling with. It takes "reprograming", or being "renewed" by the washing of the Word of God. That's why you study the Bible and listen to Biblical teaching. To renew your mind. As you appropriate truths of Scripture to your life you begin taking on the "mind of Christ". As you take on the mind of Christ, your soul (mind) is now becoming more congruent with your regenerated spirit. You're being conformed into the very image of Jesus Christ.

Now, does having this new nature in you (the Spirit of Christ) mean you'll never sin? NO. Sometimes you'll act out of accordance to this new nature. But here's the issue... you'll have a gnawing conviction about what you've done because sin is alien to your nature child of God. The very fact that you fear displeasing your Father, and you are grieved by your sin, shows that you have this indwelling nature. Yes, you are SAVED.

Remember, God doesn't throw you out the moment you sin, saint of God. There is grace. The sinning Christian will begin by quenching the Spirit's convicting. Eventually the Spirit becomes grieved, and will convict even more, this is when God often sends chastising cirumstances our way to get our attention. Though these situations often hurt, this is an act of love. If one quenches conviction from the Spirit, they are doing this to spite the Spirit of God's efforts to pull them back home. This is where God gives one over to their own desires and they backslide. At this point, they do not feel fearful or guilty of their sin and rebellion, they are "living it up". They feel "free". But they are actually back in bondage to sin.

Child of God, if you fear having displeased your Father, and your sin troubles you greatly. That's the Holy Spirit in you, your new nature, convicting you. It's not a "condemnation", it's a loving "conviction", as from a Father. Simply fall on your knees concerning the Sin and "repent". Repent is from the Greek word "metanoia". It's a compound word made of two words. These are "meta" and "noia". The first, "meta", means "to change". The second is "noia", meaning, "the way one thinks". Fall on your knees and admit to God it is a sin, confessing that His Word is right about what you're doing. Surrender and admit that in yourself you have no power over this sin and pray that Jesus Himself live His overcoming life out through you.

Don't start your day trying to be a good little Christian or Apostolic. Start your day focused on being Jesus... by allowing Him to live His life through you.

If you "get this", REJOICE. This is a revelation only God can give. Some will read my post and just "not get it". They will go back to their little religious list (their true savior) and mock the idea of Jesus living His life through the believer. They will think that their religious actions can measure up and demand that others do the same. They are in need of a revelation of God's ultimate purpose for their lives and God's desire regarding the end result of their salvation.

[Aquila]

I love this passage:

Ephesians 2:4-10
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We are God's "workmanship". That word is, "poiema", and is often used in extrabiblical Greek to depict an artist's "masterpiece". We are God's masterpiece. By grace we've been saved and created as new creatures in Christ Jesus for good works, not by good works.

How can you not live for a God who loves you so and indwells your very being?

[LUKE2447]

AQUILA I firmly believe we will stand before the judgment seat of Christ and be judged for our works. However, I’m not convinced that our judgment determines salvation. That judgment was already performed upon Christ Jesus at the cross. You and I died with Him, and were buried with Him. The requirement of death for our sins has been met. We’re dead to the Law, legally dead.

sophistry to the reality vs what the histrorical view has always been in Judaism of Judgment by works. then you have not really studied the issue. Which is why most REformed like Dillow and others have major problems when dealing with the end judgment. Their theology fails because it is based on false paradigms. Also you view of "already" been performed fails to understand the reality of the cross. Just like others of reformed thought you have to have a eschatological acquittal at salvation of ones position. Sorry the bible nowhere teaches such end judgment and has been a clear failure of REformed teachers who admit it lacks support in didactic teaching. Nowhere in Pauls teaching does he give such view of Christ atonement toward our sin. The atonement is realized by walking in faith wich is contextual work to the manifest Spirit witnessed by his Word. By walking we are cleansed not ALREADY have been cleansed.

[LUKE2447]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I love this passage:

Ephesians 2:4-10
4But God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ— by grace you have been saved— 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9 not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them.

We are God's "workmanship". That word is, "poiema", and is often used in extrabiblical Greek to depict an artist's "masterpiece". We are God's masterpiece. By grace we've been saved and created as new creatures in Christ Jesus for good works, not by good works.

How can you not live for a God who loves you so and indwells your very being?

because people love themselves more than God even after realizing his love. As usual you must make it like all reformed doctrine irrisistible and that is not the case. Even knowing the love of God and dwelling in his presence they still can turn. Irrisistible Grace is another false doctrine.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

sophistry to the reality vs what the histrorical view has always been in Judaism of Judgment by works. then you have not really studied the issue. Which is why most REformed like Dillow and others have major problems when dealing with the end judgment. Their theology fails because it is based on false paradigms. Also you view of "already" been performed fails to understand the reality of the cross. Just like others of reformed thought you have to have a eschatological acquittal at salvation of ones position. Sorry the bible nowhere teaches such end judgment and has been a clear failure of REformed teachers who admit it lacks support in didactic teaching. Nowhere in Pauls teaching does he give such view of Christ atonement toward our sin. The atonement is realized by walking in faith wich is contextual work to the manifest Spirit witnessed by his Word. By walking we are cleansed not ALREADY have been cleansed.

Luke, I'm not Jewish. And I didn't think you were. Christ's greatest enemies were the Jewish religious leaders. They consistently became outraged at Christ's teaching, Christ's claim to divinity, and Christ's demonstrations of Grace.

The Jews are the last people I'd trust with divine revelation. They denied Him. Why model your religion after people who denied the very divinity of Christ Jesus???

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by LUKE2447

because people love themselves more than God even after realizing his love. As usual you must make it like all reformed doctrine irrisistible and that is not the case. Even knowing the love of God and dwelling in his presence they still can turn. Irrisistible Grace is another false doctrine.

You don't get it Luke. God sees people as the finished product... even before they are born. Yes, God is good. Yes, man has free will. But God sees them as they "are" from an eternal perspective. Thus, if I'm going to fall away in six months and deny Jesus... that's how God sees me NOW. And if I will be faithful to Christ until death, that's how God sees me NOW. And nothing will ever change that. Thus God's grace, as it works in the lives of His children, is assured. Does it absolve us of free will? No. But it's an eternal "perspective". We're making the choices in time that God has already defined us by from eternity.

[Aquila]

And yes... you have to be ABSOLUTELY PERFECT to go to Heaven.

What does this mean?

• You must have NEVER sinned in your past.
• You must NOT sin today.
• And you must not EVER sin your entire life long.

One single sin in your past, present, or future, and all you and I deserve is HELL.

Pefection is demanded of God's holiness and justice. NO EXCEPTIONS.

The good news is...

• Jesus never sinned.
• Jesus isn't sinning.
• Jesus never will sin.

Therefore one's only hope is to be in Christ Jesus. He is our perfection.

[mfblume]

Originally Posted by Timmy

But He won't forgive intentional sin?

What I mean by intentional is that a person sins with purposeful intent to sin and not caring whether or not God is pleased. Most believers could not resist the sin although they DID NOT want to displease God and knew it was wrong. They had weak resistance to sin. That is the distinction from what I called intentional sins. IOW, they intend to do it whether or not it is wrong just because they want to do it. But, if that intention is abandoned after they committed it, and they genuinely are sorry with a true change of heart and ask forgiveness, they will be forgiven.