Speaking from beyond the grave...

[TGBTG]

Originally Posted by houston

Elijah did not die?

2 Kings 2
1 And it came to pass, when the LORD would take up Elijah into heaven by a whirlwind, that Elijah went with Elisha from Gilgal.
2And Elijah said unto Elisha, Tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Bethel. And Elisha said unto him, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they went down to Bethel.
3And the sons of the prophets that were at Bethel came forth to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he said, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
4And Elijah said unto him, Elisha, tarry here, I pray thee; for the LORD hath sent me to Jericho. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. So they came to Jericho.
5And the sons of the prophets that were at Jericho came to Elisha, and said unto him, Knowest thou that the LORD will take away thy master from thy head to day? And he answered, Yea, I know it; hold ye your peace.
6And Elijah said unto him, Tarry, I pray thee, here; for the LORD hath sent me to Jordan. And he said, As the LORD liveth, and as thy soul liveth, I will not leave thee. And they two went on.
7And fifty men of the sons of the prophets went, and stood to view afar off: and they two stood by Jordan.
8And Elijah took his mantle, and wrapped it together, and smote the waters, and they were divided hither and thither, so that they two went over on dry ground.
9 And it came to pass, when they were gone over, that Elijah said unto Elisha, Ask what I shall do for thee, before I be taken away from thee. And Elisha said, I pray thee, let a double portion of thy spirit be upon me.
10And he said, Thou hast asked a hard thing: nevertheless, if thou see me when I am taken from thee, it shall be so unto thee; but if not, it shall not be so.
11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.
12 And Elisha saw it, and he cried, My father, my father, the chariot of Israel, and the horsemen thereof. And he saw him no more: and he took hold of his own clothes, and rent them in two pieces.
13He took up also the mantle of Elijah that fell from him, and went back, and stood by the bank of Jordan;


Speaking of John the Baptist being Elijah, Elisha actually had a DOUBLE PORTION of Elijah's spirit.

So, I would think of these things as anointing. IOW, a double portion of the anointing upon Elijah fell on Elisha

The anointing upon Elijah (to restore) the people back to God fell on John the baptist.

Comparing John to Elijah

1 Kings 18
36 And it came to pass at the time of the offering of the evening sacrifice, that Elijah the prophet came near, and said, LORD God of Abraham, Isaac, and of Israel, let it be known this day that thou art God in Israel, and that I am thy servant, and that I have done all these things at thy word.
37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again.
38 Then the fire of the LORD fell, and consumed the burnt sacrifice, and the wood, and the stones, and the dust, and licked up the water that was in the trench.

Mal 4
5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:
6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse.

Luke 1
17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Maybe this should be a new thread, but how did John turn the hearts of the Fathers to the children? Did John turn the hearts of the children to the fathers too although then angel did not mention that as part of John's minsitry?

[houston]

Thing is, the word used for "heaven" is better translated as sky.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Aquila,

As per the John 9 story:

It is possible that the Jews might have had a reasoning about someone being able to sin before they were born. But we also know that the Jews did NOT know all about the workings of God.

Very true. In fact some rabbinical speculations indicate that they believed that a soul can sin in the womb. However, I don’t know if there is any biblical precedent for sinning in the womb. However, the ancient Jewish tradition of Gilgul could be said to have biblical reference. The whole promise of God to send Elijah, and Christ’s affirmation that John was Elijah. So, really… one could argue that the Bible confirms something similar to the Jewish notion of Gilgul.

For example, the saduccees did not believe in ressurrection, while the pharisees did. So I would say instead of trying to go with what the Jews "believed" based on their limited knowledge of God, let's stick to the bible where it says it's appointed to man to die once.

Ah… but let’s look at how tradition “can” cloud our understanding. The Bible states that it is appointed unto men to die once… and then the judgment. Now… the Bible doesn’t elaborate on the nature of one’s judgment after death. We conclude from contextual clues that there is a judgment after death in which one’s soul is either permitted into the presence of the Lord… or is confined to Hell. Ultimately all souls, rather in Heaven or Hell, are awaiting resurrection for a FINAL JUDGMENT. Now… who’s to say that when being judged the only options are Heaven or Hell? What if God chooses to “send one back”? You see, we have these religious notions and we make statements like the Bible rules out reincarnation because it’s appointed unto man once to die and then the judgment. But we don’t consider the results of that judgment. God could judge that one must return by divine call… or return as a judgment.

So the theory of Gilgul (Jewish reincarnation) doesn’t contradict the notion that men are to die and face judgment. It just offers an additional possibility regarding the results of said judgment.

As per the Elijah scenario, I can see what you're saying. However, we have to recognize that Elijah NEVER experience death. So, considering the fact that Elijah did NOT die, then we can't really call it re-incarnation.

Some scholars would disagree. We know that after Elijah was taken up in a whirlwind that fifty men searched for him and couldn’t find him (2 Kings 2:17). However, we also read that several years AFTER Elijah’s whirlwind experience a scolding letter was written and sent to Jehoram… from Elijah! (2 Chronicles 21:12-15) In the writings of Josephus we read that in the first century Elijah wasn’t believed to have been “taken to heaven”, but rather to have been taken away into occultation to allow for the rise of Elisha. In Josephus work, Antiquities of the Jews 9, 5:2, Josephus states that Elijah was still upon the earth in the time of Jehoram: "For he was yet upon the earth", thereby refuting any notion that Elijah was taken away to not face death.

At any rate the point still stands. God promised to actually send Elijah in Malachi. If John wasn’t literally Elijah, God’s Word wasn’t fulfilled in John. The Bible is either true or it isn’t.

But in the end, this is just speculative:

Rom 11
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?

It is speculative. However, I believe enough “biblical” evidence leaves the door open to more possibilities than traditional Christian religion is willing to recognize. So my jury is out. It is quite provocative. You’ve heard of “forbidden archeology”? Well… things of this nature are akin to being “forbidden theology”. Something so deeply mysterious religion seeks to avoid it. A long time ago my first pastor made a statement in the middle of a sermon. He stated that there are truths that are so mysterious, and beyond our traditions, that should God reveal them to you… they should never be preached; but rather they should be used in counsel or applied in the appropriate moment. What if there are truths that would rock the foundations of traditional Christian theology? We assume we understand the afterlife and the supernatural, but our models are very rigid and partial. What if the afterlife and the things concerning the spiritual realm are far more dynamic than we could ever imagine? Sure, religion and it’s pretty little clean model of things might be enough for the spiritual babe. But what about when one becomes spiritually mature and begins to walk in the spirit where angels fear to tread? These subjects may be in this realm.

[Aquila]

Remember... God said,

Malachi 4:5
{4:5} Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD:

Now... did God actually send "Elijah the prophet" in John the Baptist in accordance to His Word? This is very, very important. Because if God didn't literally send "Elijah the prophet" as He promised, but instead heaped Elijah's anointing on John... we have a problem. God didn't do what He said He'd do. That would imply that God lied, or at the very least, broke His promise. The Jewish understood God to have promised to literally send Elijah back to them. That's clear in their traditions, the questions asked by the Pharisees and the disciples. And Christ's statements affirm that John is the fulfillment of Malachi's prophecy. Why do we refuse to believe the Bible's own testimony on this? John had to be Elijah... or the promise of God in Scripture is broken.

In my mind, there is no way around it. John was Elijah. I don't care if one believes that Elijah was glorified and taken to Heaven in a whirlwind, or if they believe Elijah was merely taken into hiding to allow for the rise of Elisha... John was Elijah or the Word of God is compromised. Jesus clearly understood the challenge of accepting this. However, Jesus affirms that it is true:

Matthew 11:12-15
{11:12} And from the days of John the
Baptist until now the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence,
and the violent take it by force. {11:13} For all the prophets
and the law prophesied until John. {11:14} And if ye will
receive [it,] this is Elias, which was for to come. {11:15}
He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.

If we will receive it. That is a powerful and provocative statement. It might challenge traditional dogmas... but... will we receive it?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by TGBTG

Luke 1
17 And he shall go before him in the spirit and power of Elias, to turn the hearts of the fathers to the children, and the disobedient to the wisdom of the just; to make ready a people prepared for the Lord.

Maybe this should be a new thread, but how did John turn the hearts of the Fathers to the children? Did John turn the hearts of the children to the fathers too although then angel did not mention that as part of John's minsitry?

John did preach repentance. Would that not emphasize family reconciliation?

[Aquila]

Hey guys... I goofed. I responded about reincarnation in the wrong thread. lol Sorry!

[RandyWayne]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I was taught that man is comprised of body (material), soul (psyche/mind), and spirit (breath, or lifeforce). It's like hardware, software, and electricity.

Is it possible that upon death a person's body (material) is burried (or cremated)... the soul (psyche/mind) goes to either Heaven or Hell... and the spirit (lifeforce) may dissipate or perhaps even... linger?



Me too.

This is exactly what I believe and perfectly explains why so many haunts seem to be "unintelligent", like a recording being played over and over again or IF intelligent are very weak in nature -not the Hollywood version of people being flung across rooms or levitated while furniture spins in circles.

[bbyrd009]

I don’t know if there is any biblical precedent for sinning in the womb

I so hate this "born a sinner" yack. God Himself says one becomes a sinner "from early in your youth."

[bbyrd009]

Well, emphasizing that although Elijah's spirit is obviously reincarnated, you wouldn't have found him espousing it as a doctrine; and he probably was not conscious of his prior life, or anything?