John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(Long spaces denote the change from one topic to another.)
John disagrees with you as he clearly claims that Jesus was the Word/God in human flesh. Further this is not the only time that this concept is written in the Scripture.
1Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Colossians 2:8-9 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
John 8:56-59 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Joh 10:29-33 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
These are only a small portion of the Sctiptures that disprove you statement. Jesus also accepted worship, praise, adoration, and tribute that in the Old Testament God said belonged to Him alone. If Jesus were not God, then he set up a system in glory was given to a man that should have been reserved to God. This would mean that the entire New Testament is set on a lie, or suffers such distortions as to be untrustworthy. Either the Bible is entirely right or it is entirely wrong. There is not other way for this to be understood. If you are truly Christian, the divinity of Jesus Christ is beyond dispute.
__________________
I am an Apostolic Pentecostal. Apostolic in teaching, and Pentecostal in experience.
John 1:1-14 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not. There was a man sent from God, whose name was John. The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all men through him might believe. He was not that Light, but was sent to bear witness of that Light. That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world. He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. He came unto his own, and his own received him not. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
(Long spaces denote the change from one topic to another.)
John disagrees with you as he clearly claims that Jesus was the Word/God in human flesh. Further this is not the only time that this concept is written in the Scripture.
1Timothy 3:16 And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifest in the flesh, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.
Colossians 2:8-9 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
John 8:56-59 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am. Then took they up stones to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple, going through the midst of them, and so passed by.
Joh 10:29-33 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand. I and my Father are one. Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him. Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
These are only a small portion of the Sctiptures that disprove you statement. Jesus also accepted worship, praise, adoration, and tribute that in the Old Testament God said belonged to Him alone. If Jesus were not God, then he set up a system in glory was given to a man that should have been reserved to God. This would mean that the entire New Testament is set on a lie, or suffers such distortions as to be untrustworthy. Either the Bible is entirely right or it is entirely wrong. There is not other way for this to be understood. If you are truly Christian, the divinity of Jesus Christ is beyond dispute.
Would love to respond to this post but I would appreciate it if you would go back to my last response and take each point and refute them.Your adding more wood to the fire here and like I said I would like to address these and can with scripture but I would like to see a rebuttal of what I posted to your original post to mine.It is not really fair to ignore and move on and start another pile so to speak..Thanks..
Somebody explain it to my 7 yr old, so I dont have to confuse her more than she is, by my attempting to unconfuse her..
She is wondering why God is praying to himself.
Somebody tell her its just the human side praying to the God side, and see how everything becomes clear as mud for her.
I'm not solidly Oneness. However, from a Oneness perspective, I'd tell her that Jesus was a real man...with the Father inside... and that He was just praying to God (II Corinthians 5:19). The finer points of doctrine can be explained as she gets older. The key is to establish that Jesus is BOTH God and man. The man (Son) was praying. Jesus is like the "human house" God made for Himself to live in so that He could die for us and then live with us forever.
Would love to respond to this post but I would appreciate it if you would go back to my last response and take each point and refute them.Your adding more wood to the fire here and like I said I would like to address these and can with scripture but I would like to see a rebuttal of what I posted to your original post to mine.It is not really fair to ignore and move on and start another pile so to speak..Thanks..
I would like to reply to everything, and felt that my posted Scriptures did rebut you entirely. There is not pleasing some people . j/k
I would like to know which version your quotation from Phillipians came from as it does not sound right.
Php 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
This says that He did not view it robbery to be equal with God, which actually means that He was claiming the worship and credit due God. But he came in the form of a man as prophecied in Is 53 with little glory and not born into the house of the great. He hung upon the cross and died to remove our sin, and then it was ordained that everything should be done in His name according to Colossians 3:17. Also in His name and blood alone is our salvation according to Hebrews 10 and Acts 4. Further in Him is all power according to Matthew 28.
Finally for this portion, the Greek word translated Lord can also be translated God or Master and means supreme authority. In other words, this verse could be translated to say, "...Every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is the Supreme Authority, to the glory of God the Father." You can not have two Supremecies in the Godhead, and this verse says that Jesus will be named Supreme.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Through the entire Old Testament, the God of Israel, Jehovah, is the one defined as Savior, Redeemer, Lord, God, Creator, Master, Maker, the Rock of Israel, and many other titles. In the New Testament, every single title that belongs to the God of the Old Testament is applied to Jesus.
You argued too many points at one setting to take it all apart piece by piece, but between my two posts, I do feel that I have more than covered most if not all of your points.
__________________
I am an Apostolic Pentecostal. Apostolic in teaching, and Pentecostal in experience.
I'm not solidly Oneness. However, from a Oneness perspective, I'd tell her that Jesus was a real man...with the Father inside... and that He was just praying to God (II Corinthians 5:19). The finer points of doctrine can be explained as she gets older. The key is to establish that Jesus is BOTH God and man. The man (Son) was praying. Jesus is like the "human house" God made for Himself to live in so that He could die for us and then live with us forever.
From my Oneness perspective, I think saying Jesus had "the Father" inside muddies things up.
I would say Jesus was a real man who was also God.
The Father is a term we use for God alone - beyond His human existence. The child can understand this because "God can be everywhere".
__________________ "It is inhumane, in my opinion, to force people who have a genuine medical need for coffee to wait in line behind people who apparently view it as some kind of recreational activity." Dave Barry 2005
I am a firm believer in the Old Paths
Articles on such subjects as "The New Birth," will be accepted, whether they teach that the new birth takes place before baptism in water and Spirit, or that the new birth consists of baptism of water and Spirit. - THE PENTECOSTAL HERALD Dec. 1945
"It is doubtful if any Trinitarian Pentecostals have ever professed to believe in three gods, and Oneness Pentecostals should not claim that they do." - Daniel Segraves
I would like to reply to everything, and felt that my posted Scriptures did rebut you entirely. There is not pleasing some people . j/k
I would like to know which version your quotation from Phillipians came from as it does not sound right.
Php 2:5-11 Let this mind be in you, which was also in Christ Jesus: Who, being in the form of God, thought it not robbery to be equal with God: But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men: And being found in fashion as a man, he humbled himself, and became obedient unto death, even the death of the cross. Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
This says that He did not view it robbery to be equal with God, which actually means that He was claiming the worship and credit due God. But he came in the form of a man as prophecied in Is 53 with little glory and not born into the house of the great. He hung upon the cross and died to remove our sin, and then it was ordained that everything should be done in His name according to Colossians 3:17. Also in His name and blood alone is our salvation according to Hebrews 10 and Acts 4. Further in Him is all power according to Matthew 28.
Finally for this portion, the Greek word translated Lord can also be translated God or Master and means supreme authority. In other words, this verse could be translated to say, "...Every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is the Supreme Authority, to the glory of God the Father." You can not have two Supremecies in the Godhead, and this verse says that Jesus will be named Supreme.
Joh 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
Through the entire Old Testament, the God of Israel, Jehovah, is the one defined as Savior, Redeemer, Lord, God, Creator, Master, Maker, the Rock of Israel, and many other titles. In the New Testament, every single title that belongs to the God of the Old Testament is applied to Jesus.
You argued too many points at one setting to take it all apart piece by piece, but between my two posts, I do feel that I have more than covered most if not all of your points.
I used Phillipians 2:5 from the BBE..Bible in basic English..
You actually touched on just one ..JOhn 20:31..which I would agree...LIFE IN HIS NAME..that is not a refute..it is a fact...and I agree,my point with that verse is John wrote it to prove Jesus Christ is the SON OF GOD..not God..
But for the points you did not address I have pasted below..
The Jews were not looking for a Messiah who was God..but a man from the loins of David,a promise seed of woman.If Jesus was MORE than a man He would not be the true Messiah.David did not think the Messiah was God but rather his lord,his descendant..Psalm 110:1..ADONAI said unto my Adoni..the LORD GOD said unto my lord Messiah,master...sit on my right hand until I make your enemies your footstool..
Eph 3:19 And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.{does this make us God?} no
We too as Christians can be filled with all the fulness of God.Everything God wanted to demonstrate or make known to man He did it through his son the Lord Jesus Christ..{Hebrews 1:1-2}
The JESUS of the Bible had a beginning,He was human in ALL points nothing more added,He was perfect sinless and highly exalted and given a name above all..He did not exist prior to Bethlehem,He was created,fashioned in the womb of a virgin.The "begets" in the NT are there for a reason they clearly show the lineage of how Messiah traces back to Adam..The Jews were not looking for God to become a man,careful reasoning from the scriptures clearly can point this out but If we read with only a certain pair of glasses we will not see nothing BUT what our lens portray..to many times we see what we want to see and make it mean what we want to make it mean..The Gospel is not about God coming to earth to redeem man,but rather God creating and raising up and giving his one and only unique human Son to be the 2nd Adam.
QUESTION
If a perfect sinless MAN brought sin into the world
THEN WHY--A perfect sinless MAN would qualify to take sin out of the world? point being..it does not have to be God..
We seem to not grasp how a human being can be perfect and sinless,We think only God could do such.We are limiting God our Father with this reasoning.He is God,creator..He is able and He did in fact create a perfect sinless man to be the offeringy,the Lamb,his representation
Isa 42:1 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles.
Joh 3:34 For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.[anointed without measure}
This man called the servant of God would be anointed and appointed like no other.God promised to raise up unto David someone from his own loins..from the seed of David..to fulfill the promise to David...
The disciples understood Jesus was that servant,that man,the Messiah,the Son of God..the one who God sent...
Notice to whom they prayed too..they were just with Jesus
Act 4:24 And when they heard that, they lifted up their voice to God with one accord, and said, Lord, thou art God, which hast made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is: Act 4:25 Who by the mouth of thy servant David hast said, Why did the heathen rage, and the people imagine vain things? Act 4:26 The kings of the earth stood up, and the rulers were gathered together against the Lord, and against his Christ. Act 4:27 For of a truth against thy holy child Jesus, whom thou hast anointed, both Herod, and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles, and the people of Israel, were gathered together,
Thy Holy CHILD..servant..whom you have anointed..
What was the disciples calling the Messiah?..(while praying to God..your holy child not your holy flesh you created to walk the earth in)
From my Oneness perspective, I think saying Jesus had "the Father" inside muddies things up.
I would say Jesus was a real man who was also God.
The Father is a term we use for God alone - beyond His human existence. The child can understand this because "God can be everywhere".
Why not stick to what the Bible says? Jesus said, "Know ye not that I am in the Father and the Father in me?" II Corinthians 5:19 tells us, "To wit, God was in Christ reconciling the world unto himself."
From a Oneness perspective, why isn't the very terminology that the Bible uses sufficient to teach a child???
If you tell a child that Jesus was a man and was also God... they still won't understand why He "prays to Himself". Jesus "dwelt" (Gk. skenoo sp?), meaning "tabernacled", or to "tent" (vb.). Thus Jesus is the human tabernacle of God. A man with God inside.
Now, we know there are finer points of doctrine. Those can be taught as the child grows older.
. j/k
Linear Mode
