Me? No. But most believers that I know do have a bigger list than that. You said that it is "shameful that people are losing every sense of modesty and decorum ...". So, I inferred that modesty and decorum are pleasing to God, and lacking that would displease Him. Was I wrong? I suspect not, and also that there are lots of other things that please or displease God, in your opinion.
I believe that God loves a humble and modest spirit, that the proud and haughty are not pleasing to God... but for me that may look a lot different than it does for someone else.
I believe that God loves a humble and modest spirit, that the proud and haughty are not pleasing to God... but for me that may look a lot different than it does for someone else.
If you believe it, how does it look to you Timmy?
If God has any expectations from us humans, I believe that they are fairly simple, and are based pretty much on Jesus's Second Greatest Commandment:
Have love and respect for each other.
Other things, such as picking the right set of sacred books to believe and revere? Not so much. It makes no sense to me for God to hold us accountable for guesswork. (Most here will not admit that choosing a religion is a guess, but their explanations for why it's not a guess don't wash. )
__________________
Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Not wanting to beat this to death... Yes there are standards in the workplace and lots of other places too. It is shameful that people are losing every sense of modesty and decorum and the church has an obligation to teach what pleases God. It's the ridiculous, only done to prove control stuff that I'm discussing. Whether the pastor does it spitefully or just because it was handed down to him and he is too lazy to read his bible and think for himself matters not to me.
I do think that people suffering under that kind of leadership do need a place to hear that this is not OK... because the biggest abuse is to tell someone that they can not discuss what is happening to them. It is a trait practiced by wife abusers and child abusers and molesters... the demand that you discuss it with NO ONE.
A pastor with a good ministry should be happy to be questioned, to defend his position with the Bible and to let people grow in God at the pace God sets for them. As a late bloomer myself I am glad that there were those in the ministry who were secure enough to address my questions and issues head on and give a clear picture of what the Lord requires for salvation without tagging on a lot of baggage. I am regretful of ever meeting some who tried to make it so hard that I would have never been able to do it. And I am open to share those experiences both good and bad if they can help someone else in even the smallest way.
Please consider Jay that some of those abuses may have happened to you for a reason and that one day someone may need to know more than that ministry has always been good to you... and please prayerfully consider being willing to open up and share what might help them.
Peace.
Amen Sister. Many people who go into the OP movement think very highly of the ministers. I know now that the ministers are mere men with a loftier position than the rest of the saints in the organized church system (of whatever denomination), but nonetheless, are highly thought of by a sinner just saved by the grace of God. They consider ministers to be messengers of God’s Word. When the ministers have a human moment and fail the people by what they say and do, it can be quite devastating to the people. I share the same opinion in that it can be a healing experience to learn that:
1) All men and women have the potential to fail God, regardless of their position in life.
2. God’s Sovereignity, Grace and Love does not stop because a man/woman judges another man/woman and the implication is that it is God’s judgment.
I think that one reason ministers do not like to hear criticism about the other minister's failures, is that they themselves do not want this to be projected onto them. They want their chance to minister without the cloud of mistrust or disdain that the offending minister has created.
A brother offended is harder to be won than a strong city: and their contentions are like the bars of a castle.
(Proverbs 18:19)
People who have been hurt by man must go through a healing process to make sense of it all so that they can continue to walk with Christ on this journey of life. Talking about it helps that healing process. Those of us who have been hurt must remember that ministers are not "up there" like we thought and that they share the same weaknesses and human failures that we do.
It is then that the ones hurt can have the heart to forgive and move on in our quest to serve God.
I think now what I battle the most is for any man to place himself/herself above fellow man. Those who fell down before the Apostles, and even Angels that God has sent were strongly rebuked by them...See that thou doeth not! was their reply.
This is not only an organizational situation, Sherri...I know this for a fact.
One of my brothers was a member in an independent church. The so-called pastor's son, who was sitting in for his daddy in the bishop's absence, told my brother that his 19 year old backslidden daughter could not live in his home, and then looked at my niece and told her that 'they' (the church) didn't want her there and God didn't either.
The girl was not flaunting her sin or enticing others to follow her. She had left home for a month, came home on Saturday, and went to service Sunday morning looking for restoration, but before the service even began, pastor wannbe called my brother, sister in law and niece in the office.
They left and never went back. My brother and sister in law attend a good church now, but my niece is still unsaved.
What I have learned from this is that people are a trip everywhere.
I wish that I could give your niece a big sisterly love hug and tell her that the Bible says God forgives all who are repentant and I would think especially for those looking for restoration. Those few words that were said to her that Sunday are probably reverberating in her mind over and over again daily. What may seem like an unforgivable sin to some, is indeed a forgivable sin to God. Only God knows when the unforgivable sin is committed. I think we should all remember that Christ said that even words spoken against Him shall be forgiven.
¶Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Do realize that I do not discuss the 'church' as any organization but as the body of called out believers who undoubtedly come from many denominations and no denomination at all.
Yes, all 38,000 of them, Trinitarian included.
The people have segregated themselves from other believers over doctrinal issues. They have made man-made organizations that have certain perks and benefits from the state. They make people members of their organization rather than members of the body of Christ.
Christ knows that there are tares among the wheat and goats among the sheep. He said that he would not take them out until the harvest lest the wheat is uprooted with them.
Elisha thought he was the only prophet left and that those who bowed to baal sought his life. But God told him He had 7,000 more who have not bowed their knees to baal...
Where Christ places the people in His Church should be of no concern to man. Elisha did not know where those 7,000 men of God were placed throughout the land.
I think we would be surprised if we only knew the people God considered to be His own and where they were placed.
Generally in the PAW a written letter of recommendation is given. I've experienced phone calls, but I always ask for a written letter. I want to make sure that I know at least what is said about me and where I stand with the ministry officially. Usually phone calls only happen when the two pastors know each other well. For instance, my next assignment might bring me within close proximity to a church that my current church started and there's a 99.99999% I'll be directed to that church. I know my pastor and their pastor talk on the phone and are best friends. I'm close to that pastor's son and their family. I'll still ask for a letter though, I like to have those on file to reference.
This is not only an organizational situation, Sherri...I know this for a fact.
One of my brothers was a member in an independent church. The so-called pastor's son, who was sitting in for his daddy in the bishop's absence, told my brother that his 19 year old backslidden daughter could not live in his home, and then looked at my niece and told her that 'they' (the church) didn't want her there and God didn't either.
The girl was not flaunting her sin or enticing others to follow her. She had left home for a month, came home on Saturday, and went to service Sunday morning looking for restoration, but before the service even began, pastor wannbe called my brother, sister in law and niece in the office.
They left and never went back. My brother and sister in law attend a good church now, but my niece is still unsaved.
What I have learned from this is that people are a trip everywhere.
These are the kind of stories that turn my stomach. These so called "pastor's" are going to have to answer to God for this kind of thing and I think a lot of them are so deluded they are going to be very surprised.
__________________ "I think some people love spiritual bondage just the way some people love physical bondage. It makes them feel secure. In the end though it is not healthy for the one who is lost over it or the one who is lives under the oppression even if by their own choice"
Titus2woman on AFF
"We did not wear uniforms. The lady workers dressed in the current fashions of the day, ...silks...satins...jewels or whatever they happened to possess. They were very smartly turned out, so that they made an impressive appearance on the streets where a large part of our work was conducted in the early years.
"It was not until long after, when former Holiness preachers had become part of us, that strict plainness of dress began to be taught.
"Although Entire Sanctification was preached at the beginning of the Movement, it was from a Wesleyan viewpoint, and had in it very little of the later Holiness Movement characteristics. Nothing was ever said about apparel, for everyone was so taken up with the Lord that mode of dress seemingly never occurred to any of us."
Quote from Ethel Goss (widow of 1st UPC Gen Supt. Howard Goss) book "The Winds of God"
These are the kind of stories that turn my stomach. These so called "pastor's" are going to have to answer to God for this kind of thing and I think a lot of them are so deluded they are going to be very surprised.
True! If ministers are held to a higher accounting as they say, i fear for the souls of those who perpetrate false teaching.
__________________
God has lavished his love upon me.
Usually phone calls only happen when the two pastors know each other well.
Yes, and it is unfair to the saint when two "friends" speak about the saint and only one point of view is seen. Then the board members hear it and they tell their wives. The wives tell their friends and the saint doesn't know that the whole church knows a one-sided story. The saint gets a cold-shoulder because nobody is wanting to "be seen" with the saint...and nobody, not even the pastor asks the other side of the story.
Even the secular civil court system doesn't pass judgment this way. They at least present both sides of the issue.
Consider the young lady seeking restoration in an earlier post. The son of the pastor took it upon himself to tell the parents of the young lady that she should not be living with them.
I wonder how that is any of his business what the parents do for their child? I haven't seen a minister shun his own family who backslid yet, even in my region.
Then told her that their church did not want her there and neither did God. Perhaps there is more to the story, perhaps not. But..
One can come to a conclusion that since this young man said something that only the pastor should have said and spoke for the entire church, he harmed this young lady. And I am merely supposing here that many in the church knew about this young lady's sin and nobody was spiritual enough to set about trying to restore her.
One thing the people totally forget about church, is that it is not for the righteous, but for the unrighteous. Why? Because that is where they are convicted by the Word and by the Spirit. If you do not have Sinners, Backsliders and Hypocrits sitting in your pews, then you are not reaching the World.
If someone is ever asked to leave the church (other then for a disruption), then the Pastor for sure is not in the will of God. For even our LORD and Savior went out to the hi-ways and bi-ways and called the homeless, the sinners, to come and dine with him.
Hint. If your church does not look like the world, THEN YOU ARE NOT REACHING THE WORLD.
Linear Mode
