The Second Coming of Christ - Page 2

mfblume · #11 01-23-2012, 12:32 PM

kbtw,

When we study 1 Cor 15 (the moment we are ALL changed, whether dead or alive (which means it has to all happen at once)), that chapter does not speak about catching away. So the context there does not say if we are caught away at the same time from the world. But the point of all being changed at once, whether dead or alive, is raised again in 1 Thess 4. THERE is where it says we will be caught away from this world physically, at the same time. Now, the CHANGE is in a moment, but it did not say in 1 thess 4 that the CATCHING AWAY is in a twinkling of an eye.

Compare:

1Co 15:50-52 KJV Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. (51) Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, (52) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

1Th 4:15-17 KJV For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. (16) For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (17) Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

THE TRUMP is mentioned in both 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4. It is one and the same trumpet. It involves BOTH DEAD AND LIVING saints to be CHANGED at the same time, and is when the dead rise first AND THEN THE LIVING ARE CAUGHT UP. The change in a twinkling of an eye is not the catching away. The catching away is NOT DONE in the twinkling of an eye. Who knows how long we will be here AFTER WE ARE CHANGED? It cannot be long, though,l but it is not the twinkling of an eye that sees us gone. All we know about being caught up physically is found in 1 Thess 4. And there we read that the dead rise first and then the living are caught up to be WITH THEM. All of us at the SAME TIME MEET THE LORD. But even meeting the Lord is not done in the twinkling of an eye.

Summary:

1) THE CHANGING OF OUR BODIES, whether dead or alive occurs in the twinkling of an eye at the same time for everyone.

2) The DEAD RISE or are CAUGHT AWAY FIRST, though.

3) THE LIVING are then caught up AFTER THE DEAD RISE, to be with the resurrected dead IN THE AIR TO MEET THE LORD.

So it IS explained in scripture,. but we just have to look at all the passages which are 1 Cor 15 and 1 Thess 4 to see it all.

mfblume · #12 01-23-2012, 12:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

I must admit I agree with mfblume here, for the most part, and am tempted to see a mass occurrence here, at this special event in Rev, which may be just that; but I am too often led to a personal meaning to not be suspicious of a group translation.

We should ALWAYS be suspicious of common beliefs. SOME hold up, but others upon closer scrutiny do not.

I think the common idea that change in body and catching away both occur in a moment are incorrect. THE CHANGE is in a moment. But since the dead and living are changed at the same time, but the dead RISE FIRST before the living RISE, then the catching away CANNOT BE at the same time. It is pretty close in time, though, because we who are alive will rise to be with the risen dead, and ALL OF US rise to meet the Lord in the air together.

bbyrd009 · #13 01-23-2012, 12:46 PM

Amen, but seek other definitions for "in the air" if you will; this is a horrible translation, imo, and you might agree if you look at the MSS for "air" here. Also, I might even argue about your "at the same time" being true, but still not necessarily "together?" We all enter puberty at roughly the same time? Like that? But I am not clear on this.

mfblume · #14 01-23-2012, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Amen, but seek other definitions for "in the air" if you will; this is a horrible translation, imo, and you might agree if you look at the MSS for "air" here. Also, I might even argue about your "at the same time" being true, but still not necessarily "together?" We all enter puberty at roughly the same time? Like that? But I am not clear on this.

IN THE AIR is another issue. But timing of things is clearly laid out, I believe.

But the phrase "at the same time" has to be the issue in the thought of change. Like I said, if not everyone in the church dies, but everyone, dead or alive, are changed in a moment, and if the dead rise first and we rise to be together with them in the air to meet the lord, then the CHANGE has to happen at the same time.

mfblume · #15 01-23-2012, 01:06 PM

Think of it this way. Paul said all the believers WILL NOT experience death. BUT ALL WILL be changed in a moment and twinkling of an eye. Paul grouped all Christians into two sets with one of those who will die and the second of those alive, and then say both these people will be changed. And then for it to say that this change will occur in a moment at a particular sound of a trumpet -- both dead and living -- it has to be at the same time. On top of that, 1 Thess 4 speaks also of the dead and living, and says both groups will rise in the air, with the dead rising first, and the living rising to be TOGETHER WITH THEM to MEET THE LORD, the Lord has to be COMING in order for them to MEET HIM. The Greek term for MEET implies His coming to us and we moving towards Him to be with Him.

The PHYSICAL part comes from 1 Cor 15 where it can only be talking about PHYSICAL BODIES being changed from natural ones to immortal ones, like Jesus was physically made immortal in his resurrection. So, apply the PHYSICAL CHANGE of the bodies of both the dead and the living, and couple that with the catching away in 1 Thess4, and it has to be a physical bodily catching away.

These things were considered for centuries and well though out and studied. I believe we will physically leave this earth. Why else would 1 Cor 15 stress a physical change of bodies for the dead if they are not going to physically rise according to 1 Thess 4? Why have a physical new body from the grave and not rise physically according to the info on rising in 1 Thess 4?

bbyrd009 · #16 01-23-2012, 01:59 PM

Nicely put. A pretty compelling argument. I certainly have no doubt that we are in for miraculous things, and have to agree that this seems to describe a future corporate event. There is another interpretation here, which I'm sure you're aware of; but I am not familiar enough with it to present it. Your model here would lead to Rapture from there, yes?

mfblume · #17 01-23-2012, 10:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Nicely put. A pretty compelling argument. I certainly have no doubt that we are in for miraculous things, and have to agree that this seems to describe a future corporate event. There is another interpretation here, which I'm sure you're aware of; but I am not familiar enough with it to present it. Your model here would lead to Rapture from there, yes?

Yes it would lead to rapture. But it is not a rapture before a trib, etc., in association with the traditional premillennialism disp models. 1 Cor 15, in my estimation, demands a physical bodily resurrection. Why would God intend that for us?

The Matt · #18 01-23-2012, 11:06 PM

I think we should all live as if something could happen at any given point, we need to be ready for anything. Whether He comes tomorrow, or you die tomorrow, anything could happen. I try as hard as I can to be ready.

bbyrd009 · #19 01-24-2012, 07:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mfblume

Yes it would lead to rapture. But it is not a rapture before a trib, etc., in association with the traditional premillennialism disp models. 1 Cor 15, in my estimation, demands a physical bodily resurrection. Why would God intend that for us?

Hmm, I just reread it, and I read that one can't resurrect in a physical body, but it's early, and I'd chiefly like to get the other interpretation of 1 Cor 15 in here, if you or someone would, for comparison, and completely ignore the
"24Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father;" blowing away any attempt to make Christ the Father.

I'll give this another day, read the commentaries, and then post a synopsis, if someone doesn't beat me to it, and I'd like to continue this from there, not expecting to marry the two viewpoints, but respect them both enough to present both interpretations fairly, if possible.

Michael The Disciple · #20 01-24-2012, 02:12 PM

Paul said Jesus was made a "quickening spirit". His body was changed from earthy to Heavenly. From natural to spiritual. He never once says we will have a "physical" body. A physical body is a natural, earthy body. That what Paul says we will not have.

However our new, heavenly body will be able to transform as needed as the heavenly bodies of the angels likewise do. But the basic substance of the resurrected body will be "spiritual".