I dunno if this was brought up before, or even if it's this particular scripture the conversation comes from, but 2 Timothy 2:12 tells us
If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us.
When Peter denied Christ, do you think he meant it in his heart? Does the word say he meant it in his heart? I have to believe he wasn't saying to himself "I don't believe in Jesus". He simply said the words "I know him not" I believe that's all it takes to deny Christ.
Let's not forget that even though Peter told Jesus he would never deny Him, Christ told Peter beforehand that he was going to deny Him before the cock crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. Yet, Peter was forgiven. What made the Lord forgive Peter so easily? Is it His mercy? His love for mankind? Was it because Peter truly was sincere when he declared that he would never deny Christ? Perhaps it was that Jesus recognized that Peter was mere flesh at that time. The Holy Ghost was not given to the Apostles until the upper room. Let's consider that is when God supplied the people with spirit-strength to withstand what the early church withstood. Is the church today fired up for this type of persecution ?
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It is better to trust in the LORD than to put confidence in man. (Psalms 118:8)
I don't believe it. But I thought you believed the Bible. Do you deny that it teaches what I said it teaches?
Well, a refresh:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Timmy
I don't really understand your objection. The Bible does teach that you should get saved to avoid hell! The alternative to abundant life is horrible torture forever. What is so wrong with wanting to escape that?
And no, I do not deny that there is a common sense lesson, many of them, related to..."avoiding hell." However, it is completely missing the point for this to be our focus, which we got in the US in spades, btw.
What is so wrong with wanting to escape that is that it completely misses the point of where your focus should be. It is "How did we get from 'Life, more abundantly' to 'I can't wait to die, and "go to Heaven."' It is a distortion that removes a Christian from the now, where your only eternity will ever be, to an obsession about some future time.
This kills you, in the only way that matters. Now, instead of a focus on "Life more abundantly" which if that doesn't describe Wedding preparations I don't know what does, you are naturally going to start preparing for...SURPRISE! Armageddon, just like all the lost people are doing.
And guess what this does to one's witness, this death-centric yack that you will, nonetheless, convert a certain type to. Ha and wait til you tell em that all this hell avoidance is just a maybe lol--whatcha got here is a guy that had a pretty good idea God existed, but had heard some bad stuff about Christians, so was wary; nonetheless got close enough to hear...ha, the only message in town, that you need to avoid hell, son, in the worst way only, only Heaven is a ways off yet-ya, nevermind what that Scripture says, really, because look around seeing is believing perception is reality so vote your conscience and get a mortgage, yup, the church has one it's ooook and really, that's all either ancient history now, or waaaay in the future (or, for that matter, tomorrow) TO-MORROW, TOMORROW
c'mon Timmy, are you asking me if I got saved to avoid hell tomorrow? Yes. Am I scared of hell now? No, hell is scared of me now. Am I probably going to die horribly, tomorrow, writhing in unimaginable fixation on something that has about a chance in a billion of happening? Hope so, the first part; sure beats cancer, and I'm actively seeking it as an alternative, lol.
So, I'd say that this model of avoiding hell works fine, apparently. It got me here. But I'm certainly no longer avoiding hell, and it's an ignorant way to get new recruits, mercenaries paid in freebies or something, forces all the creativity vacuum to wiccans, the passion vacuum to gays, who guess what God has no problem using, He just needs humble.
Ha I'd say it works like your questions work here, in the same spirit. Even though you no longer believe this way, hmm...
I deny that it teaches what you said it teaches, yes.
I cannot deny that some aspect of eternal torment is held out for non-believers, and liken it to a quite valid warning of a Father to a child, recognizing that even the Bible seems to place this torment after prophecy that has yet to occur. While I'm pretty sure now that actual flames are a metaphor for ignorance, my knowledge of God and pain tells me that this is not an exaggeration.
The Bible also seems pretty plainly to me to institute a time for believers and non-believers together in Spiritual bodies for another season of satan, "for a short time," after the millenium. "Eternity" is an encompassing word for us, if you will, used to refer both to "now" and later.
If you will, the eternal torment is "as long as ignorance reigns, there will be torment," the day of your physical death is completely irrelevant to God, to whom you are a soul, "a little leaven leavens the whole batch," normally used for sin, but also one time for the Holy Spirit, mask the Revelation, toss in a little Armageddon, add just a pinch of satan (free will, whatever) viola' you got one whopper of a universal misunderstanding, a replay of the First Coming, and if every single person on earth read this you wouldn't change that, our common image would still be whacked because God has a better idea, and doesn't care what you or your religion thinks is gonna happen. K I'm ranted out : n )
And no, I do not deny that there is a common sense lesson, many of them, related to..."avoiding hell." However, it is completely missing the point for this to be our focus, which we got in the US in spades, btw.
What is so wrong with wanting to escape that is that it completely misses the point of where your focus should be. It is "How did we get from 'Life, more abundantly' to 'I can't wait to die, and "go to Heaven."' It is a distortion that removes a Christian from the now, where your only eternity will ever be, to an obsession about some future time.
This kills you, in the only way that matters. Now, instead of a focus on "Life more abundantly" which if that doesn't describe Wedding preparations I don't know what does, you are naturally going to start preparing for...SURPRISE! Armageddon, just like all the lost people are doing.
And guess what this does to one's witness, this death-centric yack that you will, nonetheless, convert a certain type to. Ha and wait til you tell em that all this hell avoidance is just a maybe lol--whatcha got here is a guy that had a pretty good idea God existed, but had heard some bad stuff about Christians, so was wary; nonetheless got close enough to hear...ha, the only message in town, that you need to avoid hell, son, in the worst way only, only Heaven is a ways off yet-ya, nevermind what that Scripture says, really, because look around seeing is believing perception is reality so vote your conscience and get a mortgage, yup, the church has one it's ooook and really, that's all either ancient history now, or waaaay in the future (or, for that matter, tomorrow) TO-MORROW, TOMORROW
c'mon Timmy, are you asking me if I got saved to avoid hell tomorrow? Yes. Am I scared of hell now? No, hell is scared of me now. Am I probably going to die horribly, tomorrow, writhing in unimaginable fixation on something that has about a chance in a billion of happening? Hope so, the first part; sure beats cancer, and I'm actively seeking it as an alternative, lol.
So, I'd say that this model of avoiding hell works fine, apparently. It got me here. But I'm certainly no longer avoiding hell, and it's an ignorant way to get new recruits, mercenaries paid in freebies or something, forces all the creativity vacuum to wiccans, the passion vacuum to gays, who guess what God has no problem using, He just needs humble.
Ha I'd say it works like your questions work here, in the same spirit. Even though you no longer believe this way, hmm...
Uh. OK.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
Ok, I hope you don't take that wrong; the Kingdom apparently needs this, and your pov is missed when you aren't around. There are people who log on here every day because they know there's a guy dogging the establishment, lol.
Ok, I hope you don't take that wrong; the Kingdom apparently needs this, and your pov is missed when you aren't around. There are people who log on here every day because they know there's a guy dogging the establishment, lol.
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Hebrews 13:23 Know ye that our brother Timothy is set at liberty
You do know that a lot of Christians disagree, right? I could list some scriptures that do support eternal torment, but you'd just interpret them another way, so there's no point. Pretty much any scripture can be taken multiple ways. I maintain that a straight reading of some of them teaches eternal torment. Hmm. Maybe I should find them and reread them. Eh. Not that motivated right now. It's been a long day.
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