What's your least favorite scripture?

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by berkeley

Exposing one lie at a time.

[KeptByTheWord]

Okay Berkely... I stand corrected... and here is an article I found showing that indeed men and women have 24 ribs, each.

http://biology.clc.uc.edu/courses/bio105/ribs.htm

And I quote from the article...

A reader of this Web page sent me an e-mail message with another point worth remembering. If, for example, a person would accidentally lose a finger or would have a body part surgically removed, then subsequently that person would create a baby, that baby would still be born with all his or her body parts. Similarly, if Adam had a rib removed, that does not mean that we, his children, would have missing ribs.

So, the possibility remains that Adam could have one less rib, but that wouldn't necessarily mean that all of his children would have the same...

Thanks Berkley!!

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I've thought for a while about how to respond to this post T2W. I can't say I haven't felt the same thing a few times when reading the Bible. I know this one thing for sure, we have more questions than we have answers.

However, the Bible for sure holds up to the microscope in most historical accounts. History has proven time and time again that accounts written in scripture did take place.

Have you read the Case for Christ by Lee Strobel? He set out to prove Jesus Christ wrong, as a lawyer who was, I think, agnostic. After years of research and study, he became a Christian and acknowledged there is a Case for Christ. I know you believe in Christ, and I'm not trying to argue that... just saying that I've heard this book is a really good read for those who have questions...

But there is so much historical evidence that lines up with the Bible that you really can't ignore the fact that what has been written has stood the test of time.

I understand frustration with the gender equality issue.... but the Bible really doesn't prove that women are "equal" with man.

This is because a woman, Eve, was taken out of the side of Adam, instead of being made a separate and distinct being. (We know this is true because women have one less rib than men, which makes the story historically accurate).

This is an issue very close to my heart, as I have often wondered why God did not make Eve as a separate and distinct being, but he didn't, he took her out of the side of man. There is great significance in that. The main point being, women are not equal with man. We were created from man, and were created FOR man.

But when you look at the picture of Christ and the church, you see why this is.

Christ signifies the first Adam, and the church/bride came out of his side in the blood and water on Calvary. It is a beautiful picture really. I know you know these things, but just in case others are reading that hadn't seen that picture before of how Calvary and how it relates with the story of Adam and Eve.

So just as Christ is not a dictator of the church, His bride.... then neither is man to be dictators to women, but to love and tenderly nourish them. The fact remaining though, that women were not created equal in the garden with man, AND the church will never be equal with Christ.

This pattern holds true all through scripture, whether you think man tweaked it or not, nad makes submission a very real thing when you look at Christ and the church.

So it all boils down to this... if you start feeling like you can do away with parts of the Word that don't necessarily appeal to you... that creates a big problem... where does it stop?

I know your heart, and how much you love the Lord, and I understand too some of the frustration you've expressed.

A good reminder of just how little we humans really know and understand become a little more clear reading the book of Job. I know this may sound old, as I've spoken of it in other threads, but many of my questions regarding so many things, I found answers to, or at least peace in not understanding the answers, when I read the book of Job.

Well, I've probably muddied the water more than cleared anything up, but of course, this is all from my point of view....

What a wonderfully kind post. Your Holy Ghost is just beamin' sis!

Let me clear up a few things lest I be misunderstood... Maybe I'll go in backwards order since crabbing at things sideways sometimes works for me.

First then about gender equality issues. When I speak to those I am not speaking to headship issues or submission issues so let me stretch out my thoughts a little for you. I believe that the head of woman is man (in the father/daughter husband/wife relationship) the head of man is Christ and the head of Christ is God. I also believe that God created man (humanity), male and female he created them. Equal. How that works in my life is that there is an order of submission that is God ordained. I am in submission to my own husband who is in submission to Christ. It is as it should be. I am a very fortunate woman, many of my sisters do not have it so good.

I am NOT however, in submission to all men. Nor am I in any way less in the eyes of God as a person because I am female. I am created equal to any man, anywhere, by God. I am filled with the Holy Ghost, can pray, prophesy, teach, and preach. God made me purposefully to be female. He made me strong enough to be a useful partner to my husband and strong enough to go it alone if that were my circumstance. Paul said himself that it was better to remain single and thus undividedly serve the Lord, if one was able. He addressed both males and females when he spoke this under inspiration of the Holy Ghost. I do not need the covering of a man to be complete as a human being, as a woman, or a servant of the most high God. I am however BLESSED to have the covering of a Christian man.

Many writing styles and even oral communications translate pronouns as male (the bible is no exception) that would better be translated as neutral gender human, i.e. humanity, person, people instead of man/men. This often leads to confusion when the simple believe that only male gender persons are being addressed rather than people as a whole. Then there are even a few cases (as in Junia's) where one known to be female in the ancient writings has been renamed a male name because the translators felt that her position was more 'befitting' a man. I feel that these kinds of things have led to women being subjected, in ways common to the heathen, and subsequently robbed of their equal personhood, which was bestowed on them by God at creation.

Now onward to Bible history. Yes I have read Lee Strobel's book. Great book BTW and I have even passed along a few copies to agnostics I am sharing Christ with. Much of the Bible is historically correct in time and place. Some may possibly be faulty but all ancient writings are possibly altered along the way. That in no way changes the fact that there is a God, He robed Himself in flesh and dwelt among men. He was the propitiation for sin and is the Way the Truth and the Life. No man (human) comes to the father but by Him. He covers me with mercy and with love.

I do not believe that one of His requirements of me is that I believe this or that version of the Bible completely- lock, stock and barrel. And I do not. I've not found a translation that is even close on very careful examination except the Christian Bible which is only the New Contract portion of what we commonly call the Bible. I do not read Classical or Koine Greek or Hebrew so I must count on translators to be accurate. So far they have let me down.

I knew posting this that some would find it offensive and some possible even no longer be able to see me as a sister in Christ. And I hesitated for a moment. But I must live my conscience in honesty as I too will face my God at the judgement. And while I count on His mercy for what I am not able to know I do not ask it to cover living a lie. To say that I believe the Bible infallible or without error would be to lie in the very thing that is most at the core of my being... my faith.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Cindy

I don't have a least favorite, but the counting and begetting scriptures I am no into that much.

If you ever develop insomnia you will quickly learn to appreciate the begats

[KeptByTheWord]

I think I understand now what you are saying... that through the thousands of years, the translations could have taken on different meanings, due to the different translators, and writers, and so on... and so how are we to REALLY KNOW FOR SURE that what happened is written down now for us to read was written... exactly as it happened.

You make some great points, and things to consider.

I agree with you that woman is subject to her own husband, and not to every man... I heartily agree with that one, and don't see how anyone couldn't according to scripture that we have (But I HAVE seen people interpret that to mean that pastors/preachers etc. can tell women what to do... and that is NOT scriptural)

I am very blessed too in that I have a husband who loves me dearly, would give his life for me if he had to and our relationship in regards to submission is not dictatorial, not at all. He makes final decisions, but we work together in all that we do, and so, I too am very thankful that I have a husband who understands the true concept of headship.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by KeptByTheWord

I think I understand now what you are saying... that through the thousands of years, the translations could have taken on different meanings, due to the different translators, and writers, and so on... and so how are we to REALLY KNOW FOR SURE that what happened is written down now for us to read was written... exactly as it happened.

You make some great points, and things to consider.

I agree with you that woman is subject to her own husband, and not to every man... I heartily agree with that one, and don't see how anyone couldn't according to scripture that we have (But I HAVE seen people interpret that to mean that pastors/preachers etc. can tell women what to do... and that is NOT scriptural)

I am very blessed too in that I have a husband who loves me dearly, would give his life for me if he had to and our relationship in regards to submission is not dictatorial, not at all. He makes final decisions, but we work together in all that we do, and so, I too am very thankful that I have a husband who understands the true concept of headship.

Yes I think you are reading me better than I am expressing myself.

I have seen the subjection of women taken even further in the church (not in Oneness Pentecostalism but in Old time Baptist churches) to include that every man is over every woman, women are to be silent (and I mean SILENT) in meetings that include men, and that women can never, ever, ever teach boys or men except moms teaching their own young children at home. Even family discipline for boys was to be carried out by fathers. If there was no father in the home the oldest boy was the 'head'. Sicko stuff. I have five sons and the day I let some 16 year old boy rule my home would be the day.

Also taught along those lines and even in OP churches is that if the pastor says one thing and a woman's husband says another... well she should obey the pastor and disobey her own husband. I can find NO scripture to support that, can anyone else?

I took a huge amount of flack for teaching seeker bible studies to mixed gender groups... because evidently even heathen men were better than me. My husband was chided for not 'controlling' his wife over it, although it was his desire that I sub in when he was not able to be there due to work conflicts. We got gone pretty quick but still have lots of family in that movement and the Quiver Full movement where women spend all their time literally barefoot and pregnant.

Still I am sure that my beliefs are not a backlash of these experiences. I have asked the Lord to cleanse me of all bitterness with regard to that and give me peace about it. If God wanted me subjected to all men I would do it... I just do not believe, after very careful study, that He does and my husband certainly does not

[Jay]

Originally Posted by Titus2woman

If you ever develop insomnia you will quickly learn to appreciate the begats

Hey, I deserve credit for mentioning the begats first!!

[Cindy]

Originally Posted by Jay

Hey, I deserve credit for mentioning the begats first!!

I missed it, too.

[Titus2woman]

Originally Posted by Jay

Hey, I deserve credit for mentioning the begats first!!

And Adam begat somebody... who begat somebody else.. who begat Jay's dad... who begat Jay! And the world is a better place for it


Zzzzzz!!!!

[Jay]

Ouch!!

I have must say that I enjoy and love everyone here as well, and think that the world would be a far less interesting place without you guys in it.