Growing Faith

[HRea]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Nice; Amen. A tough step for a Western Christian. I'm persuaded that growing faith is diff from getting faith, even if they both essentially reduce to "hearing," which has little or nothing to do with your physical ears.

I agree. Western Christianity is in danger of becoming apathetic toward the kingdom of Jesus Christ. True discipleship requires rejecting the things of this world which will require great sacrifice on the part of the disciple. This is where it becomes difficult.

Getting Faith equals a response to hearing for the first time (ie hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ, or listening to someone relate a testimony concerning a realized possibility within the kingdom). This is why I included a short side trip about the woman with the issue of blood and the men of Gannesaret. They heard about the woman's miracle, responded, and received healings of their own.

Growing Faith is exercising the faith you already have.

Hearing and doing is the way we grow.

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

You've given some great Bible study, but not proved where faith is increased any other way than by hearing and hearing by the Word. Jesus' fame being spread has nothing to do with people's faith increasing. And you still didn't prove it with the woman and the issue of blood... sorry, just doesn't prove it. Relationship may increase, belief may even increase... excitement... zeal... but not faith.

I marvel at your response; either you are playing devil's advocate and being contentious as a means to provoke a discussion, or you're not actually seeking an answer and are dismissive of any of the scriptures posted. In either case, you're working very hard not to understand the responses given. Your constant referral to "hearing the Word" as the only means of growing faith shows a lack of understanding in what that truly means.

There are 3 outcomes that the Bible teaches about "hearing the Word" (and Word hear is specific to the Word of God - not testimonies or accounts):

1. Outright rejection - this leads to damnation
2. Hearing, acceptance, but no response - this leads to becoming dull of hearing and necessitates the need for foundational teaching to be repeated over and again. There is no forward progress and no growth.
3. Hearing, acceptance, and a response - this leads to our faith being increased and our ability to hear greater teachings and mysteries.

Jesus admonishing His disciples in Luke 17, and the passage in Hebrews 5 makes it very clear that "hearing the word" is not enough to increase your faith. Those that are hearers only are called weak, unskillful, and unprofitable servants.

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by HRea

I agree. Western Christianity is in danger of becoming apathetic toward the kingdom of Jesus Christ. True discipleship requires rejecting the things of this world which will require great sacrifice on the part of the disciple. This is where it becomes difficult.

Getting Faith equals a response to hearing for the first time (ie hearing the gospel of Jesus Christ, or listening to someone relate a testimony concerning a realized possibility within the kingdom). This is why I included a short side trip about the woman with the issue of blood and the men of Gannesaret. They heard about the woman's miracle, responded, and received healings of their own.

There is no where in any of those accounts that says they received faith from hearing about the woman's miracle. One cannot receive "faith" or have their faith "increased" as the result of hearing testimonies. None of that story shows that. Furthermore, that's before Pentecost, so really your talking about faith for a different dispensation... you must use post Pentecost writings and accounts to show how someone in the Church Age increases their faith... which is where Paul's writing comes in... "faith cometh by hearing... and hearing by the Word of God....

Originally Posted by HRea

Growing Faith is exercising the faith you already have.

Hearing and doing is the way we grow.

Where in post Pentecost Scriptures does the Bible say that faith grows by exercising your faith? That is a name it, claim it, Word of Faith teaching... and not Biblical. It sounds good, preaches good, etc... but it's not Biblical for the New Testament Church.

Originally Posted by HRea

I marvel at your response; either you are playing devil's advocate and being contentious as a means to provoke a discussion, or you're not actually seeking an answer and are dismissive of any of the scriptures posted. In either case, you're working very hard not to understand the responses given. Your constant referral to "hearing the Word" as the only means of growing faith shows a lack of understanding in what that truly means.

There are 3 outcomes that the Bible teaches about "hearing the Word" (and Word hear is specific to the Word of God - not testimonies or accounts):

1. Outright rejection - this leads to damnation
2. Hearing, acceptance, but no response - this leads to becoming dull of hearing and necessitates the need for foundational teaching to be repeated over and again. There is no forward progress and no growth.
3. Hearing, acceptance, and a response - this leads to our faith being increased and our ability to hear greater teachings and mysteries.

Jesus admonishing His disciples in Luke 17, and the passage in Hebrews 5 makes it very clear that "hearing the word" is not enough to increase your faith. Those that are hearers only are called weak, unskillful, and unprofitable servants.

So how is it that disagreeing with your assertions means I'm either playing devil's advocate, or not understanding? That's the epitome of condescention. I totally understand where your coming from, I just don't agree. Your last quote above all has to do with obedience of the Word.... not directly with faith. This thread... though you got off topic quite a bit... has to do with Faith, and how to grow faith. There is only way to "gain faith" other than the measure of faith given at conversion.... and that is by being in God's Word.

The principles of doing something with it after you've been in the Word go without saying... of course... becaue the Bible says that faith without works is dead!!!!!! Come on... that's the basics... the discussion was a higher level than that, assuming anyone who would even want to grow their faith is going to walk in obedience.

The biggest disagreement I had, where you came in and still didn't disprove.... is that exercising faith cannot grow faith.. and there are no NT Scriptures that teach it. Provide all the pre Pentecost antectdotal accounts you want... none say that someone's faith grew as a result... and there are no post Pentecost teachings that teach any other way to 'get faith' other than being in God's Word.

[bbyrd009]

Ah, well then allow me to testify that my faith has been increased,
many times, by testimonies that reflected something in my "hearing."

Your def of "hearing" seems to be unnecessarily narrow here?
To what end?

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Ah, well then allow me to testify that my faith has been increased,
many times, by testimonies that reflected something in my "hearing."

Your def of "hearing" seems to be unnecessarily narrow here?
To what end?

To what end? Oh, just trying to be Biblical... just a little thing I try to do every now and then.....

And your faith wasn't increased... your confidence may have... your belief may have... your trust may have... your hope may have... but your faith wasn't... cause it don't line up with the Word.

[HRea]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

There is no where in any of those accounts that says they received faith from hearing about the woman's miracle. One cannot receive "faith" or have their faith "increased" as the result of hearing testimonies. None of that story shows that.

Actually, if your definition of faith is consistent with Hebrews 11:1, then those of Gannesaret who received their miracle did demonstrate this. They didn't see the miracle, but hoped for the same.

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

Furthermore, that's before Pentecost, so really your talking about faith for a different dispensation... you must use post Pentecost writings and accounts to show how someone in the Church Age increases their faith... which is where Paul's writing comes in... "faith cometh by hearing... and hearing by the Word of God....

Our very foundation is based on the teachings of the apostles (NT) and prophets (OT), Jesus Christ Himself the chief cornerstone.

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

Where in post Pentecost Scriptures does the Bible say that faith grows by exercising your faith? That is a name it, claim it, Word of Faith teaching... and not Biblical. It sounds good, preaches good, etc... but it's not Biblical for the New Testament Church.

Really? Name it and claim teaching? What utter garbage in an attempt to disregard a sincere response.

Post-Pentecost scriptures? You've completely ignored Hebrews 5 (by reason of use) which proves that you must use your faith in order to bear/hear more of the Word; however, you might be more comfortable with the apostle James:

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

So how is it that disagreeing with your assertions means I'm either playing devil's advocate, or not understanding? That's the epitome of condescention.

It's not the disagreeing that I was in reference, it was that you were either ignoring the scriptures posted or you would simply wave your hand and reply nope, nope, nope.

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

The principles of doing something with it after you've been in the Word go without saying... of course... becaue the Bible says that faith without works is dead!!!!!! Come on... that's the basics... the discussion was a higher level than that, assuming anyone who would even want to grow their faith is going to walk in obedience.

Ah, you've stumbled onto an incredible mystery that many can say but don't fully understand. And it's not basic at all, it is the crux of the matter. Jesus, James, Paul, writer of Hebrews, Peter, et al, agree that if you want to grow your faith, increase your faith, or be able to bears the strong meat of the Word, you must do something with the Word that you've already heard.

Now, you've said over and again that no one has given you scripture, but I (as well as others) have given plenty. What do you say concerning Hebrews 5:12-14 and James 2:22?

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by HRea

Actually, if your definition of faith is consistent with Hebrews 11:1, then those of Gannesaret who received their miracle did demonstrate this. They didn't see the miracle, but hoped for the same.



Our very foundation is based on the teachings of the apostles (NT) and prophets (OT), Jesus Christ Himself the chief cornerstone.



Really? Name it and claim teaching? What utter garbage in an attempt to disregard a sincere response.

Post-Pentecost scriptures? You've completely ignored Hebrews 5 (by reason of use) which proves that you must use your faith in order to bear/hear more of the Word; however, you might be more comfortable with the apostle James:

James 2:22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?



It's not the disagreeing that I was in reference, it was that you were either ignoring the scriptures posted or you would simply wave your hand and reply nope, nope, nope.



Ah, you've stumbled onto an incredible mystery that many can say but don't fully understand. And it's not basic at all, it is the crux of the matter. Jesus, James, Paul, writer of Hebrews, Peter, et al, agree that if you want to grow your faith, increase your faith, or be able to bears the strong meat of the Word, you must do something with the Word that you've already heard.

Now, you've said over and again that no one has given you scripture, but I (as well as others) have given plenty. What do you say concerning Hebrews 5:12-14 and James 2:22?

James Chapter 2 is not talking about increasing faith, or growing faith... but how to keep your faith from being dead.... that works must accompany faith. No where in that entire chapter is it teaching on how to increase your faith. In Verse 22, the Greek word there for "faith made perfect" is that Abraham's faith was accomplished... not increased. So, in my study of James 2, has nothing to do with increasing or growing faith.

Hebrews 5 especially verses 12 - 14 has to do with being mature in Christ..., mature in your walk with God and the things of God... but says nothing about faith... or increasing your faith, or growing your faith...


NEXT!!!!!!

[HRea]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

James Chapter 2 is not talking about increasing faith, or growing faith... but how to keep your faith from being dead.... that works must accompany faith. No where in that entire chapter is it teaching on how to increase your faith. In Verse 22, the Greek word there for "faith made perfect" is that Abraham's faith was accomplished... not increased. So, in my study of James 2, has nothing to do with increasing or growing faith.

Hebrews 5 especially verses 12 - 14 has to do with being mature in Christ..., mature in your walk with God and the things of God... but says nothing about faith... or increasing your faith, or growing your faith...

NEXT!!!!!!

Bzzzztttt!!! Misinterpretation used...go back three square...return to study.

In James 2:22, the primary meaning of the Greek word used for "made perfect" is "to complete", from the root, meaning "growth to completeness". James is using Abraham as an example to make a point that only by putting faith into action can it be "made complete" or "perfected". The Greek word used for "faith" in this verse is the same word used in Luke 17:5 when the disciples asked the Lord to "increase our faith". It is referring the same thing.

If I understand the point you're trying to make ("faith increases only by hearing the Word"), then Hebrews 5:14 all the more applies, especially to your stance. Only those who "by reason of use" can bear the "strong meat" (which is specifically referring to "deeper principles of the word of God"); those who have not done anything with what they've heard are addressed in Hebrews 5:12-13, not even being able to bear the "first principles of the oracles of God".

James 2:22 and Hebrews 5:12-14 very much apply to this discussion, and both address faith.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

James Chapter 2 is not talking about increasing faith, or growing faith... but how to keep your faith from being dead.... that works must accompany faith. No where in that entire chapter is it teaching on how to increase your faith. In Verse 22, the Greek word there for "faith made perfect" is that Abraham's faith was accomplished... not increased. So, in my study of James 2, has nothing to do with increasing or growing faith.

Hebrews 5 especially verses 12 - 14 has to do with being mature in Christ..., mature in your walk with God and the things of God... but says nothing about faith... or increasing your faith, or growing your faith...


NEXT!!!!!!

Wow, I'm really surprised that this seems to be
such an issue with you? I'd like to wish that faith goes
from 0 right to 100%, just by acquiring hearing,
but experience tells me otherwise?

In fact, faith seems to ebb and flow, another thing I don't really get;
but reflected in other testimonies? I've been at, say, 60% (prolly more like 6%? Just throwing out a #), or "faith that caused other believers to spontaneously say Amen," and then a couple weeks later, reading the Word all the while, found my faith at 40%...

And since this...is, I'd like to illuminate that faith may not come by
reading the Bible everyday, even memorizing it--that is not what the verse says (ok, extreme case? maybe not; prolly commonly attempted)--

"Faith comes by hearing..."
and since that is obv not quite the def of "hearing"
we are used to, it remains to define "hearing"
(which has prolly been done here)
and go from there?

Having had hearing spiritually demonstrated to me,
many times now, I'm curious how this might fit in to your model,
which I'm still thinking we're somehow arguing semantics.

ps, but I will say the "NEXT" thing is troubling?
You are the final word here? The very worst frame of mind
from which to...proceed, lol.
Or attempt to proceed--this indicates a closed mind, imo.

[Bro. Robbins]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

ps, but I will say the "NEXT" thing is troubling?
You are the final word here? The very worst frame of mind
from which to...proceed, lol.
Or attempt to proceed--this indicates a closed mind, imo.

It's saying that I and the other poster will never agree... no need to keep beating the horse when he already stinks. I aint gonna change my mind and neither are they.... call it a closed mind, narrow mind, whatever you want... but sometimes we just need to realize that further discussion does nothing but tare down and people just need to part ways agreeing that they see things differently.

I never said I was the final word.... nice way to assume things and put words in my mouth... but I am the final word when it comes to my continuing to attempt to help someone understand my point of view... I get to decide when I want to leave the discussion, just like you do.... the discussion can continue... absolutely... but I get to decide when I move on.... like we all do.

[HRea]

Originally Posted by Bro. Robbins

It's saying that I and the other poster will never agree... no need to keep beating the horse when he already stinks. I aint gonna change my mind and neither are they.... call it a closed mind, narrow mind, whatever you want... but sometimes we just need to realize that further discussion does nothing but tare down and people just need to part ways agreeing that they see things differently.

I never said I was the final word.... nice way to assume things and put words in my mouth... but I am the final word when it comes to my continuing to attempt to help someone understand my point of view... I get to decide when I want to leave the discussion, just like you do.... the discussion can continue... absolutely... but I get to decide when I move on.... like we all do.

Bro. Robbins, I apologize for getting a bit contentious. I'm guilty of becoming too passionate about my own point of view and get carried away sometimes. I agree, we do see this differently.