Repentance, Holiness, and the Church

[Dordrecht]

I have to say that the Muslim view as I understand it is "submit to Christ.

You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

You don't have a clue what you are talking about.

Well, it's undeniable that anyone not following Christ
is condemned in the Qur'an. The frame is different,
and they lack the deadly Original Sin doctrine, but
I have to refer to my Catholic analogy, Dordt.

And are the stars of Fox news referred to as Muslims
after they blow something up? Yes. Would the suicide
himself have admitted as much beforehand? Surely.
Does the Qur'an, or the overwhelming majority of
Islam provide a witness that this is true? No, they don't,
although there is surely a limit even for them, if you want
to be honest about it. "When I defend myself, I am attacked"
people don't get radicalized in a vacuum.

[JamDat]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Hmm, my best answer there is that I read all the same verses you do;
we have "the separation" parable, wherein many surprised sheep,
who never did any steps, are "in," and "a good deed covers many sins..."
Which should be taken in context with other verses.

So, will good works save one? I read the endless, mostly circular arguments about this, and I'm not sure that that is the right Q, or the right way to ask what needs asking there.

I pretty much agree w/MTD, but another aspect that I think gets little attention is that as humans we imagine these things--salvation, born again, repentance, redemption, etc.--to be instantaneous things that happen with some words, right? Which I seriously doubt.

Accepting Christ, to me, is not something you do with your mouth;
although there is certainly meaning in public confession.
I think our walk is reflected in our children's progress thru life?
Toddlers get a grace that a kid who is 16 and should know better
does not; or should not. At a certain point, dad realizes it's better to let 'em spend the night in jail.

I've skipped around editing these paragraphs, so sorry if they're disconnected.

Except that you seem to think that those are His children even before any of what you've listed. Unless one has repented, unless one is born again they are not His children and therefore can not grow in Christ. When they are born again then yes I agree there is learning and sanctification which is life long.

Also it's not a person accepting Jesus, it's Jesus accepting that person.

[JamDat]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

I think achieving it is possible, with sacrifice. Can a child become an adult?
Maybe not an exact parallel--but then why "Be ye perfect?" Your stance there would make Christ's words of no effect?

And @ Muslims up there, I have to say that the Muslim view as I understand it is "submit to Christ, BAM; but skip the Original Sin."

Speaking in relation to being human without the intervention of the cross...

There is no way one can be perfect or attain the state of perfection. God says for all have sinned. If you've even committed on crime against God then you are not perfect and can not be perfect. Surely you've read in the bible "a little leaven leavens the whole lump."

Now "Be ye perfect.' What could that mean? Jesus when saying this also said "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Yes Jesus listed all these things to do and then said to be perfect. So if you've gone against even one of those things that He talked about you are not perfect. Are you perfect? Of course not. Remember that He was not talking to a blood bought church yet.

Jesus's whole point was that you are not perfect and can't be! Hence the reason we need Him. So that God will view us as being perfect like Jesus Christ is. Just like Jesus was viewed as the criminal and punished in place of us. Isaiah 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

[Dordrecht]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Well, it's undeniable that anyone not following Christ
is condemned in the Qur'an.

Quote scriptures from the koran please!

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by JamDat

Except that you seem to think that those are His children even before any of what you've listed. Unless one has repented, unless one is born again they are not His children and therefore can not grow in Christ. When they are born again then yes I agree there is learning and sanctification which is life long.

Also it's not a person accepting Jesus, it's Jesus accepting that person.

Those words indicate a certain path to be followed, words to be said,
that are the definition for you, and most Christians. While I whole-heartedly
agree with the words, the Separation tells me that the definition is
lacking. This is religion, to me; "We'll interpret and define God for all, and all better get with our definition." This is doomed.

The last line there; what might keep Christ from accepting one who has accepted Christ?

[Dagwood]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Yes, yes. The Mormons, the Muslims, the Hare Krishnas, Catholics, all have a similiar claim. It becomes meaningless words. Either one changes their mind, or they do not. I just checked, and God did not send me to judge Mormons. Most of the ones I've met seem to be producing good fruit. I'm looking for a Christian that has changed their mind. Maybe there are only 4?

Ex-Mormon here (well, Mormon as a child following parent's search). We weren't around long enough to fully comply with their doctrine.

However, I would second your statement bolded above. Those I knew were solid in the faith and daily spiritual routines. I never once heard a word spoken from their leadership or any of their members against those of another denomination, let alone that others were "lost."

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by JamDat

Speaking in relation to being human without the intervention of the cross...

There is no way one can be perfect or attain the state of perfection. God says for all have sinned. If you've even committed on crime against God then you are not perfect and can not be perfect. Surely you've read in the bible "a little leaven leavens the whole lump."

Now "Be ye perfect.' What could that mean? Jesus when saying this also said "You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

Yes Jesus listed all these things to do and then said to be perfect. So if you've gone against even one of those things that He talked about you are not perfect. Are you perfect? Of course not. Remember that He was not talking to a blood bought church yet.

Jesus's whole point was that you are not perfect and can't be! Hence the reason we need Him. So that God will view us as being perfect like Jesus Christ is. Just like Jesus was viewed as the criminal and punished in place of us. Isaiah 53:10 Yet it was the will of the LORD to crush him; he has put him to grief; when his soul makes an offering for guilt, he shall see his offspring; he shall prolong his days; the will of the LORD shall prosper in his hand.

Why discuss "from the pov of the lost?" I would agree with all you say for a "lost" person;
who determines who is lost?
1) I've never heard the leaven parable applied quite that way; but I agree
that once one sins, they are separated from God. However, as soon as one asks forgiveness, they are forgiven, and that sin is blotted out--it is gone, as far as God is concerned. You negate "be ye perfect," while I believe it.

2) I'm not denying that everyone needs Christ. I'm pretty sure our defs of "perfect" are diff, if yours dwells on past forgiven sin. I note that "re-repenting" is common in your model, and this seems to strongly reflect Original Sin?

"Are you perfect?" You bet. Any less is to deny Christ for me. Or are you revealing some sin of mine, that I must name and ask forgiveness for, to be perfect again?

[JamDat]

Originally Posted by bbyrd009

Those words indicate a certain path to be followed, words to be said,
that are the definition for you, and most Christians. While I whole-heartedly
agree with the words, the Separation tells me that the definition is
lacking. This is religion, to me; "We'll interpret and define God for all, and all better get with our definition." This is doomed.

The last line there; what might keep Christ from accepting one who has accepted Christ?

The wrong jesus or the wrong gospel.

[bbyrd009]

Originally Posted by Dordrecht

Quote scriptures from the koran please!

Ok, more? I quoted one yesterday, but don't have my Qur'an here, so it would be tonight. It's in many places.