Apostolic 101

[Tim Rutledge]

Acerrak. You said nothing we do can merit us being saved. Is everyone going to be saved? If not.. then on what merits brought salvation. Without trying to sound ridiculous.. The mind we have burns calories and energy, and comes to an understanding of Calvary and makes a decision by faith.. Is that not something called choice which is a human action?? Now.. How we respond to that thought of faith means everything. I cannot articulate in words exactly what I'm trying to say. You believe in Jesus name baptism after repentance and I assume you believe when filled with the Holy Ghost you'll speak in other tongues.

[Hoovie]

Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge

Acerrak. You said nothing we do can merit us being saved. Is everyone going to be saved? If not.. then on what merits brought salvation. Without trying to sound ridiculous.. The mind we have burns calories and energy, and comes to an understanding of Calvary and makes a decision by faith.. Is that not something called choice which is a human action?? Now.. How we respond to that thought of faith means everything. I cannot articulate in words exactly what I'm trying to say. You believe in Jesus name baptism after repentance and I assume you believe when filled with the Holy Ghost you'll speak in other tongues.

I'll answer this for me if that's OK. I realize you are addressing Acerrak...

There is submission and cooperation needed on our part when we accept the work of Christ. But I would not say this is "merit". It does not speak of any worthiness or value that we bring to the table - it's quite the opposite.

He alone completed the purchase of our redemption and eternal life. We acknowledge that and receive it. Not by our merit, but by our need and his gift.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge

Acerrak. You said nothing we do can merit us being saved. Is everyone going to be saved? If not.. then on what merits brought salvation. Without trying to sound ridiculous.. The mind we have burns calories and energy, and comes to an understanding of Calvary and makes a decision by faith.. Is that not something called choice which is a human action?? Now.. How we respond to that thought of faith means everything. I cannot articulate in words exactly what I'm trying to say. You believe in Jesus name baptism after repentance and I assume you believe when filled with the Holy Ghost you'll speak in other tongues.

i will deal with tounges real quick, speaking in tounges is (A) sign of the Holy ghost, it is not the only evidence of the infilling of the Spirit, this is described in mark 17:17

Do i believe in tounges absolutly, How do i believe in tounges as it is defined in 1 corinthians ch 12-14.the bible does not teach with evidence of other tounges as doctrine, that was based on a lose hermenuetic of scriptures. Its a Gift,



what could anyone do to save themselves? I will use a illustration. a fishing vessel gets hit by a wave, the boat roles. a device sends out a signal(S>O>S).
the Coast Guard is deployed. They send a helicopter on the scene.

10 men in the water, a diver is lowered along with a metal basket to lift them up. The diver gets in the water, puts them into the basket and secures them.
The helicopter lifts them up and pulls them into the Helicopter.

what did the people do? they believed that the coast guard was going to rescue them. Did they secure themselves and pull themselves up the rope. NO

the same is with our relationship with God. We believe He will save us, and He did all the work. If you think believing is a work your one of the few that believes that. Believing is not a merit. Jesus is the Diver, the Cross is the basket, Grace is what raised you up out of that ocean of death and sin, and raised you in a newness of Life.

the faith that You have to believe is God given.

That is what the whole bible is about brother the redemption of man.. The old testament they tried to obtain it by their merits in keeping the law. everyone of them failed... until a man by the Name of Yeshua/Jesus came. He fullfilled the law because we couldnt, and now because of him all the rightous requirment of the law is fullfilled for us through Him.

[Tim Rutledge]

Originally Posted by acerrak

i will deal with tounges real quick, speaking in tounges is (A) sign of the Holy ghost, it is not the only evidence of the infilling of the Spirit, this is described in mark 17:17

Do i believe in tounges absolutly, How do i believe in tounges as it is defined in 1 corinthians ch 12-14.the bible does not teach with evidence of other tounges as doctrine, that was based on a lose hermenuetic of scriptures. Its a Gift,



what could anyone do to save themselves? I will use a illustration. a fishing vessel gets hit by a wave, the boat roles. a device sends out a signal(S>O>S).
the Coast Guard is deployed. They send a helicopter on the scene.

10 men in the water, a diver is lowered along with a metal basket to lift them up. The diver gets in the water, puts them into the basket and secures them.
The helicopter lifts them up and pulls them into the Helicopter.

what did the people do? they believed that the coast guard was going to rescue them. Did they secure themselves and pull themselves up the rope. NO

the same is with our relationship with God. We believe He will save us, and He did all the work. If you think believing is a work your one of the few that believes that. Believing is not a merit. Jesus is the Diver, the Cross is the basket, Grace is what raised you up out of that ocean of death and sin, and raised you in a newness of Life.

the faith that You have to believe is God given.

That is what the whole bible is about brother the redemption of man.. The old testament they tried to obtain it by their merits in keeping the law. everyone of them failed... until a man by the Name of Yeshua/Jesus came. He fullfilled the law because we couldnt, and now because of him all the rightous requirment of the law is fullfilled for us through Him.

On the boat that rolled over, the device, or telegrapher that sent out the morse code was responding to a situation, and worked his fingers and signaled S.O.S. I am not trying to be obstinate.. just stating that faith alone in the S.O.S. signal alone wouldn't of worked.. he had to do something to get saved.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge

On the boat that rolled over, the device, or telegrapher that sent out the morse code was responding to a situation, and worked his fingers and signaled S.O.S. I am not trying to be obstinate.. just stating that faith alone in the S.O.S. signal alone wouldn't of worked.. he had to do something to get saved.

No the device wasnt worked by fingers, infact it is set off when it comes incontact with water, all fishing vessels have these. man doesnt use morse code anymore its (actually against the law)

Just as that device sent up a message, the same way does our soul.
It reminds me of the blood of abel after cain killed Him. The blood shed cried to God

genesis 4:10
And he said, What hast thou done? the voice of thy brother's blood crieth unto me from the ground.

remember God breathed Life in us, the word is Pnuema same word is sometimes used for the Spirit.

psalms 84:2 My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the LORD: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God.

Psalm 119:81 My soul faints with longing for your salvation, but I have put my hope in your word.

Even before God created the heavens and the earth, He knew we needed a savior. He knew adam was going to fail, He knew How he would redeem us.

The lamb slain was always at the four front of His works when designing creation.

Your trying to put some kind of gratification on man, all man ever did was condem themselves to hell. We dug a hole we cant get out of. and according to romans chapter 4 believing is enough.

So im just trying to understand what man did to try and help God to save themselves?

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge

Only by repentance then baptism in Jesus name is ones sins covered by the blood of Jesus. & the curse of sin is lifted. Do people on this forum still believe that?

I believe that the Gospel demands that one repents of sin, is water baptized, and filled with the Holy Ghost (this is a theological process called "conversion" that follows "prevenient grace"/"effectual calling").

However, I believe that the Apostles originally baptized in Jesus' name. The Trinitarian formula came later as a Trinitarian innovation. I believe that down through the ages many have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Many of ancient church writings speak of those who fell into a "spiritual ecstasy" during prayer wherein there words were unintelligible, they saw visions, spoke to angels, experienced miracles, etc. I don't think they used the terms "baptism of the Holy Ghost", or "speaking in tongues" as we do today...but it was the very same experience.

God judges the heart. One need not have a theology degree and know the finer points of a theological viewpoint to be saved. All they must know is that God (and in essence salvation) is found in Jesus alone. Therefore I believe many Trinitarians down through the ages have been "saved", and no doubt discovered their theology wasn't correct on every point.

I'm a "restorationist". I believe that the church fell into Catholic apostasy and was experienced a series of "revivals" in the Reformation that brought her back in line with Scripture more and more as reform continued. Ultimately, I believe that the Apostolic movement is the advancement made to get "back to the Bible" that we've seen within the past couple generations. Here's a short break down:

Lutheran Church - AD 1517: Saw - Justification by faith...

Presbyterian Church - Ad 1536: Saw - Communion as a Memorial...

Congregational Church - AD 1580: Saw - Separation of Church and State...

Baptist Church - AD 1609: Saw - Water Baptism by Immersion...

Methodist Church - AD 1739: Saw - Personal Holiness...

Christian Church - AD 1820: Saw - Baptism for Remission of Sins...

Trinitarian Pentecostalism - AD 1900: Saw - Baptism of the Holy Ghost - Evidence: Speaking with Tongues as in Acts chapter 2 on the day of Pentecost...

Apostolic Movement - AD 1914: Saw - The revelation of God in Christ (ONENESS), and the truth of baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ was brought into full focus again.

Today, I believe a there is a more subtle "reformation" taking place wherein people are leaving instituationlized denominations and churches to fellowship in a more biblical manner in smaller bodies known as "house churches" or "simple churches". Slowly, the church is now taking the organic form like that seen in the book of Acts.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge

Acerrak. You said nothing we do can merit us being saved. Is everyone going to be saved? If not.. then on what merits brought salvation. Without trying to sound ridiculous.. The mind we have burns calories and energy, and comes to an understanding of Calvary and makes a decision by faith.. Is that not something called choice which is a human action?? Now.. How we respond to that thought of faith means everything. I cannot articulate in words exactly what I'm trying to say. You believe in Jesus name baptism after repentance and I assume you believe when filled with the Holy Ghost you'll speak in other tongues.

Bro. Rutledge,

You're perspective brings up some serious theological implications, as you most assuredly know. If you don't mind, I'd like to ask a few questions. We may agree on some things and disagree on others. I'm just wanting to better understand your perspective as I join this conversation. I'll share my thoughts also as the conversation progresses.

What exactly "merits" salvation???
Can a man "come to God" on his own terms, or must God "draw" him?
What is "holiness"???
What is "sanctification"???
What exactly are the "standards" (or "commandments") that we as Christians are to live by in order to "stay saved"???
Can you provide a list of things that a Christian "must do" (works) to stay saved???
What do we mean when we say that Jesus served as our "atonement"???
What does it mean when we say that Jesus served as our "propitiation"???

These are VERY important to this discussion. Because we might all be saying the same thing. However, if we're not, we have to clarify some things to understand each other and learn from one another. These questions can also reveal error very quickly.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by Tim Rutledge

Faith without works is dead.. So no works means dead faith. Nobody with dead faith has the blood of Jesus applied to their soul. Unless you repent you shall perish. Baptism in Jesus name is to remit sin. So simply said.. Faith, and repentance coupled with baptism in Jesus name applies the blood to our soul and we are born again of the water.

In context, what "works" did James admonish Christians to do in order to demonstrate that their faith wasn't dead???

Hint: James wasn't talking about conversion, television, or dress codes.

[acerrak]

Originally Posted by Aquila

I believe that the Gospel demands that one repents of sin, is water baptized, and filled with the Holy Ghost.

However, I believe that the Apostles originally baptized in Jesus' name. The Trinitarian formula came later as a Trinitarian innovation. I believe that down through the ages many have received the baptism of the Holy Ghost. Many of ancient church writings speak of those who fell into a "spiritual ecstasy" during prayer wherein there words were unintelligible, they saw visions, spoke to angels, experienced miracles, etc. I don't think they used the terms "baptism of the Holy Ghost", or "speaking in tongues" as we do today...but it was the very same experience.

God judges the heart. One need not have a theology degree and know the finer points of a theological viewpoint to be saved. All they must know is that God (and in essence salvation) is found in Jesus alone. Therefore I believe many Trinitarians down through the ages have been "saved", and no doubt discovered their theology wasn't correct on every point.

I'm a "restorationist". I believe that the church fell into Catholic apostasy and was experienced a series of "revivals" in the Reformation that brought her back in line with Scripture more and more as reform continued. Ultimately, I believe that the Apostolic movement is the advancement made to get "back to the Bible" that we've seen within the past couple generations. Here's a short break down:

Lutheran Church - AD 1517: Saw - Justification by faith...

Presbyterian Church - Ad 1536: Saw - Communion as a Memorial...

Congregational Church - AD 1580: Saw - Separation of Church and State...

Baptist Church - AD 1609: Saw - Water Baptism by Immersion...

Methodist Church - AD 1739: Saw - Personal Holiness...

Christian Church - AD 1820: Saw - Baptism for Remission of Sins...

Trinitarian Pentecostalism - AD 1900: Saw - Baptism of the Holy Ghost - Evidence: Speaking with Tongues as in Acts chapter 2 on the day of Pentecost...

Apostolic Movement - AD 1914: Saw - The revelation of God in Christ (ONENESS), and the truth of baptism in the Name of Jesus Christ was brought into full focus again.

Today, I believe a there is a more subtle "reformation" taking place wherein people are leaving instituationlized denominations and churches to fellowship in a more biblical manner in smaller bodies known as "house churches" or "simple churches". Slowly, the church is now taking the organic form like that seen in the book of Acts.

this is what we refer to as progressive revelation, however when searching early church history from 90a.d. to around 400a.d. we find many uses of baptism according to matthew 28:19 and some uses with Jesus name.

I believe this was inpart to disciples carrying around the book of matthew, as none of the other gospels give any such of scripture that could be viewed as a "formula" then ofcourse later came the book of acts.

so i say both was used and both was excepted, One man even said that they baptized the gentiles according to matthew and the jews according to acts 2:38. i would have to relook at that again to make sure though.

[Aquila]

Originally Posted by acerrak

this is what we refer to as progressive revelation, however when searching early church history from 90a.d. to around 400a.d. we find many uses of baptism according to matthew 28:19 and some uses with Jesus name.

I believe this was inpart to disciples carrying around the book of matthew, as none of the other gospels give any such of scripture that could be viewed as a "formula" then ofcourse later came the book of acts.

so i say both was used and both was excepted, One man even said that they baptized the gentiles according to matthew and the jews according to acts 2:38. i would have to relook at that again to make sure though.

I have mind blower for you. I don't believe there is a "formula" in Scripture. Here's why...

Can anyone find an exact quote of what was to be said over a convert at water baptism??? No. If there was a "formula"... why don't we see it "formulated"???

We do see something very interesting. Who was told to call upon the name of Jesus at Paul's baptism?

(Acts 22:16 KJV)
(16) And now why tarriest thou? arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, calling on the name of the Lord.

Notice, Ananias didn't tell Paul, "arise, and be baptized, and wash away thy sins, as I call upon the name of the Lord." No... Ananias told PAUL to call upon the name of the Lord to wash away his sins.

I think "formulas" are innovations codified by legalists. The issue isn't what is being said over you by a third party. The issue is... who's name are YOU calling upon at your baptism? A "biblical" Jesus name baptism is one wherein the one being water baptized is calling upon the name of Jesus as Paul was commanded to.

If I'm wrong... please give me an exact quote of what was said over a person in water baptism. If this can't be provided.... it can hardly be claimed that it was "formulated". And if it wasn't "formulated"... we don't have a "formula".

Technically, a person could wade out into a river all alone, call on the name of Jesus for salvation, and submerge themselves... and it would be more valid and biblical than having a fancy pants institutionalist-preacher utter a phrase over them.

I mean... if we're going to call ourselves "Apostolic"... let's do it as the Apostles did it.